Elves and Dwarves?

RMS said:
Well, it sounds like Glorantha isn't a good match for you then.
Well, that's a bit of a surprise since I played virtually nothing else from the first appearance of RQ1 (and White Bear & Red Moon before that) to the last dying gasps of Avalon Hill's productions. Back then there was room to breath, and space to move. Now there's barely an acre that hasn't been built on, or a minute that hasn't been accounted for.

Many games fail by having too many rules and too little setting. Hero Wars/Quest was the first I saw that had too few rules and too much setting!

I hope the new start in the 2nd age will give us back some freedom from the setting lawyers, but it looks bad around here...

Wulf
 
I find I am mostly in agreement with Wulf Corbett.

I started playing RuneQuest in Glorantha in the early 80s and played it for years (~20). What has happened in my Glorantha is very different than what Greg thinks should happen. RuneQuest is a game, the characters are the heroes. They are the ones that shape the world, not some fantasy historian with a near cult-like following.

As for Elves and Dwarves. Here is how my group always saw it.

Elves are plants the same way that Trolls are darkness and Dwarves are stone. They are associated with their runes and have mythos that says they were created from those runes.

Elves look like shorter, slender humans with pointed ears and eyes that are all one solid color, usually green, but other colors are not uncommon. Looking closer their hair appears leafy, but it is still hair. Their skin also has a greenish tinge to it.

Elves have green blood. This is from the copper in their blood. Copper is their sacred metal. Trolls have black blood from the lead in it. Humans and Dwarves have red blood with iron in it.

Elves are not cannibals. Nothing I have ever read (keeping in mind that I gave up on the “new” stuff) says that Elves eat other Elves. They are plants in a mystic sense, plant spells work on them (Foodsong for example), and they eat plants. If that makes them cannibals then we are all cannibals when we eat beef or pork.

Older Elves do indeed start to look more tree-like. Their skin browns and becomes wrinkled and leathery. It would feel more like rubber than bark though.

Problem with Elves as plants

Do they breathe? Will they drown if you shove their heads under water?

Do they float? Could they swim to the bottom of a pond if they wanted to? Can they float down a river?

With bark-like skin wouldn’t they have natural armor like Trolls?

Would they burn more easily?

And finally, when you speak of elves do people think of Plant Men? I love the attachment that Elves, Dwarves and Trolls have to their runes. But if you are going to call it an Elf, it should at least look something like an Elf.
 
Urox said:
Adept said:
Uh, have you actually played HeroQuest? That's not how it goes at all :(
I was refering to Hero Wars, which I haven't played since it came out (2000?).

Am I confusing it with another system?

Yes and no. Hero Wars was a lemon of a system. Basically Issaries INC run out of money and time, and had to publish a half-finished game. Some people liked it, but for most it was confusing and not very satisfying.

HeroQuest, is a totally re-written game that is still recognizable enough that you can use the HeroWars support books with it. It's a much better game. One with nicely playtested rules and lot's of support material.

The HeroQuest book also gives a rather clear picture of Greg's vision of the magical worlds of Glorantha and on how to actually run Hero quests.
 
Wulf Corbett said:
I hope the new start in the 2nd age will give us back some freedom from the setting lawyers, but it looks bad around here...

Wulf

Wulf, can you please explain to me why you feel constrained by the material? What's wrong with ignoring the bits you don't like and keeping the bits you do like?
 
Your description is very close to the offiscial. The description of the elves is (deliberately, I think) a bit vague and poetic, so the degree of overt plantyness of the elves is up to the individual gamemaster.

The appearance you described is very much how I run my elves too, and I have no trouble with them being too planty / unplanty.

Having seen the new Warhammer war-dryads (miniatures) I think I'll adopt them as really old treelike elves. Sort of like the huorn of Fangorn (the ent's that had gotten treelike, and the trees that had awakened) they mostly slumber in the deep forest, but can still be roused to defend it in dire need.

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/woodelves/painting/converting_dryads/default.htm

That's how I see the Gloranthan elves. What humans usually see looks fairly human, and even pretty, but the deep forest contains a lot of scary secrets...
 
Adept said:
Wulf, can you please explain to me why you feel constrained by the material? What's wrong with ignoring the bits you don't like and keeping the bits you do like?
One of the major problems is the ammount of effort required. If I wanted to get rid of subcults, I'd have to rewrite every cult with the rules and magic I wanted to keep. Likewise, I'd have a choice of inconsistancy ot major rewrites on virtually every bit of the setting to simplify it.

As a rules example (I have no other setting examples, Glorantha is the only setting I find with this level of excessive detail - Talislanta possibly, but I never actually games there, Creation certainly, but I'm ignoring that), I decided to simplify the AEG Stargate game by missing out half the rules. But it was a couple of game sessions before I realised that I'd missed out rules that the players needed to actually win fights. In a D20 system, the devil is in the modifiers, in Glorantha, it's in the Gods...

And there's a further problem with details. If players read the setting material (and I hope they do show at least that degree of interest in any game I run) they may well disagree on what bits are worth keeping and what aren't. So then we have a conflict of interest, and quite possibly confusion over what's going on. It doesn't matter that I can make arbitrary decisions as to what is and is not included in my game, if we start with different ideas of what's going on it may take some time setting things straight (one of the reasons that HeroQuest failed in my group was the games refusal to actually tell you what to do - my group do not like some fluffy vague ideas over "do what you like, use whatever skill you thing suits" - so I had to tie down every conflict for them).

Wulf
 
Wulf Corbett said:
Adept said:
Wulf, can you please explain to me why you feel constrained by the material? What's wrong with ignoring the bits you don't like and keeping the bits you do like?
One of the major problems is the ammount of effort required. If I wanted to get rid of subcults, I'd have to rewrite every cult with the rules and magic I wanted to keep. Likewise, I'd have a choice of inconsistancy ot major rewrites on virtually every bit of the setting to simplify it.

You could also just wing it, also a rewrite like that for the area you are playing in might take, what half an hour? Not a lot of time if you hate it that much.



Wulf Corbett said:
As a rules example (I have no other setting examples, Glorantha is the only setting I find with this level of excessive detail - Talislanta possibly, but I never actually games there, Creation certainly, but I'm ignoring that), I decided to simplify the AEG Stargate game by missing out half the rules. But it was a couple of game sessions before I realised that I'd missed out rules that the players needed to actually win fights. In a D20 system, the devil is in the modifiers, in Glorantha, it's in the Gods...

You seem to have a total dislike of anything post RQIII (II) wether it explores totally untouched areas or expands on new ones.

Wulf Corbett said:
And there's a further problem with details. If players read the setting material (and I hope they do show at least that degree of interest in any game I run) they may well disagree on what bits are worth keeping and what aren't. So then we have a conflict of interest, and quite possibly confusion over what's going on. It doesn't matter that I can make arbitrary decisions as to what is and is not included in my game, if we start with different ideas of what's going on it may take some time setting things straight (one of the reasons that HeroQuest failed in my group was the games refusal to actually tell you what to do - my group do not like some fluffy vague ideas over "do what you like, use whatever skill you thing suits" - so I had to tie down every conflict for them). Wulf

You could always ask the players not to read any thing and photocopy what their characters might know and give it to them.


Gasp! players only knowing what their characters know, what will they think of next?
 
Lord Twig said:
Older Elves do indeed start to look more tree-like. Their skin browns and becomes wrinkled and leathery. It would feel more like rubber than bark though.

Problem with Elves as plants

Do they breathe? Will they drown if you shove their heads under water?

Do they float? Could they swim to the bottom of a pond if they wanted to? Can they float down a river?

With bark-like skin wouldn’t they have natural armor like Trolls?

Would they burn more easily?

And finally, when you speak of elves do people think of Plant Men? I love the attachment that Elves, Dwarves and Trolls have to their runes. But if you are going to call it an Elf, it should at least look something like an Elf.

Very good points indeed. And I have made the same argument about calling them elves, if they are going to look like a crossbreed between a tree and a human.

I could create a race that has a snout instead of a nose, tusks in their mouth, have only three fingers on each hand, a long tail, and eyes made of glass. It has been made from the Chaos and Man rune, and I call them Humans.
Surely, this must be the very very first thing you think about when you hear the word "human".
 
Wulf Corbett said:
RMS said:
Well, it sounds like Glorantha isn't a good match for you then.
Well, that's a bit of a surprise since I played virtually nothing else from the first appearance of RQ1 (and White Bear & Red Moon before that) to the last dying gasps of Avalon Hill's productions. Back then there was room to breath, and space to move. Now there's barely an acre that hasn't been built on, or a minute that hasn't been accounted for.

If you've been playing it, you've either already ignored lots of the detail that's there (exactly what you complain about later) or you've already been using it. I just don't seen any difference in the level of detail in HQ/HW vs. RQ and I do own all the material for both. All HQ/HW has done is rewritten the material that was there before for the new mechanics, and added some fluff that's very interesting to some of us but has no affect on actual game play. I haven't learned a new thing about the world in any of it that wasn't already there in RQ...outside of some info on new parts of the world.

In fact, our discussion got me to look back at the official RQ Orlanth writeup, and I found that it's number of subcults (expressed as outright subcults or associated dieties there) is right on par with the Thunder Rebels writeup. (Keep in mind that only the Adventurous and Thunderous aspects are covered in RQ, so that's all I'm comparing. All the Allfather/Rex stuff is new, but not aimed at a typical PC anyway, so irrelevant for this discussion.)

I'm not trying to be a pain, but all I'm reading is a complaint about the mythic good-ole-days, but things haven't really changed much from what I've seen: some refinement here and there, but no big drastic changes. Yes, more of the world has been detailed. That's pretty much a given, as people explore it, but there's whole regions with almost no development. The whole timeline for the world is easy to discard, or gross enough to just ignore for individual groups of PCs. It just sounds like you didn't like the HW/HQ rules and by association are dumping on the world now.

Btw, Talislanta that you mentioned, specifically avoids adding lots of detail so there's room to explore. It gives big brush strokes across the lands, but doesn't detail much of anything. It's interesting, but far more "standard" than Glorantha, for good or bad.
 
RMS said:
It just sounds like you didn't like the HW/HQ rules and by association are dumping on the world now.
Interesting. On the other hand, it sounds to me like you're sticking your head in the sand and living in denial over the excessive burden of trivia and beard-stroking crap that an excellent, playable setting has been almost buried under. Different strokes and all that, but a pointless discussion.

Wulf
 
Wulf Corbett said:
RMS said:
It just sounds like you didn't like the HW/HQ rules and by association are dumping on the world now.
Interesting. On the other hand, it sounds to me like you're sticking your head in the sand and living in denial over the excessive burden of trivia and beard-stroking crap that an excellent, playable setting has been almost buried under. Different strokes and all that, but a pointless discussion.

Wulf

Man you are prickly. You could try to make your arguments with less hostility you know. The style doesn't make your arguments any more convincing.
 
Wulf Corbett said:
RMS said:
It just sounds like you didn't like the HW/HQ rules and by association are dumping on the world now.
Interesting. On the other hand, it sounds to me like you're sticking your head in the sand and living in denial over the excessive burden of trivia and beard-stroking crap that an excellent, playable setting has been almost buried under. Different strokes and all that, but a pointless discussion.

Wulf

Nope, not sticking my head in the sand. (That's a new thing for anyone to accuse me of, but pretty damn funny!) I know the world and what's out there, and was simply attempting to pass some of that background along. It's always been dense, and I realize that chases a lot of people off and even understand it.
 
RMS said:
Nope, not sticking my head in the sand. (That's a new thing for anyone to accuse me of, but pretty damn funny!) I know the world and what's out there, and was simply attempting to pass some of that background along. It's always been dense, and I realize that chases a lot of people off and even understand it.

I don't think anything or anyone is going change Wulf's opinions.
 
homerjsinnott said:
RMS said:
Nope, not sticking my head in the sand. (That's a new thing for anyone to accuse me of, but pretty damn funny!) I know the world and what's out there, and was simply attempting to pass some of that background along. It's always been dense, and I realize that chases a lot of people off and even understand it.

I don't think anything or anyone is going change Wulf's opinions.

I've gotten that impression pretty quickly. Differing opinions are fine with me, and I enjoy them, so long as they're rational and based on some sort of facts. In any event, I was only trying to be helpful for Wulf since I've already been down that path. When I first read the HW material, it came across the same way Wulf is reading it. After digesting it a bit, I realized it wasn't anything new. It's just a different presentation of the same material we've seen in RQ2 and RQ3. They've just gone the modern route of adding lots of "fluff" that can be interesting, but doesn't affect game play one way or the other. (To be fair here, I don't think it was presented as well as it could have been to get this across.) I won't drag it out anymore.

Edit: Need to at least skim posts before submitting them for basic grammar! :)
 
Lord Twig said:
Elves look like shorter, slender humans with pointed ears and eyes that are all one solid color, usually green, but other colors are not uncommon. Looking closer their hair appears leafy, but it is still hair. Their skin also has a greenish tinge to it.
That's more or less how HeroQuest describes them, although it adds that there is a lot of variation, both between individuals and between families/clans of elves.

Problem with Elves as plants

Do they breathe? Will they drown if you shove their heads under water?

Do they float? Could they swim to the bottom of a pond if they wanted to? Can they float down a river?

With bark-like skin wouldn’t they have natural armor like Trolls?

Would they burn more easily?
Well, plants need air to survive, so elves should too. To be more Gloranthan about it, all Man Rune creatures appear to need all the elements for survival: Air = breath, Water = drink, Earth = food, Fire = warmth, Darkness = sleep. So yes they need to breathe.

Unless stated otherwise, I'd assume their bodies roughly have the same density as human bodies; as long as they look more like humans than plants, the laws of Gloranthan physics will act on them like humans, not plants.... :) Likewise as regards vulnerability to fire. Their bones may be wooden, but they're encased in flesh and blood.

Only very old elves (and rare individuals) have bark-like skin. I'd say that yes, they'd acquire the equivalent of armour; but they'd also get huge penalties to dexterity and speed as all their movements become stiff and, er, wooden (sorry).
 
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