Elves and Dwarves?

[jorganos]

It seems that every race mentioned in this thread "are so alien that it can not be played", so I have to ask, what _can_ you play beyond humans?

It is perfectly possible to play walking trees, humanoid machines or awakened animals. With RuneQuest set in the Second Age I also expect there to be game mechanics to play a dragonewt, at least one in the context of the EWF (which may turn out to be a failure to the true draconic way, but what the heck - player characters...)

What is hard is mixing a dwarf, an elf and a Praxian into a single party, marching into whichever Second Age equivalent there is for Gimpy's. A bad joke in any case...

Both with fantasy humans and fantasy non-humans you always have the choice to play them within the context of their culture, or to play them as adventurers/questers/people on an expedition. If played within the context, racial mixing requires extraordinary circumstances. Like that new city of Pavis out there in Prax...

The Second Age setting has great potential for an aldryami pirate campaign, with Errinoru's great sailing expedition. Go harvest your blowguns, and get those leaves into the wind. Or be one of those aldryami "proven to be extinct" in Umathela, and make Sherwood your weapon. Allly the local barbarian humans and deal with the God Learners, become a Knowledge Assassin.

Go to Kethaela if you want aldryami, dwarves, trolls and humans cooperating against the Machine God. Minor heroes from all these cultures are lined up against monstrous odds. Become one of those heroes, and then become cannon fodder or a special ops platoon.

The dwarves lead a bitter tunnel war between Nida and Greatway. The Greatway dwarves - Individualists - make use of non-dwarf allies to hold back the overwhelming forces of Nidan Orthodoxy in bitter underground battles, with occasional trouble with trolls and other underworld denizens unknown to the Surface World. Isidilian, the Dwarf of Dwarf Mine in Dragon Pass, appears to recruit humans for this war - the later Cannon Cult.

The trolls in Ralios are allies of the just (about to be) vanquished Dark Empire. Those in Kethaela have control over parts of Esrolia but are fighting the Machine God for that control (or rather the food and magic supply which results from that control).

There are plenty such settings which would be hard if not impossible to play with human characters. The character outlook to life may be alien, but that doesn't render the race as unplayable. Style of play may be different, though.

 

[Adept]

There are plenty such settings which would be hard if not impossible to play with human characters. The character outlook to life may be alien, but that doesn't render the race as unplayable. Style of play may be different, though.

You are right Jorganos. The Second Age offers a lot of play centered on the nonhumans. I had forgotten much of that. I'd still usually go with a specific type of nonhumans (possibly mixed with humans) instead of the elf & troll scoundrels working together in an adventuring band thing.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

I can't believe I'm hearing this. Are you saying all the stuff that's been produced for HeroWars & HeroQuest are crap? Thunder Rebels alone is a strong contender for the best RPG book ever. That's how one does a culture book with stuff relevant to actual play.

All of it? No. SOME of it, yes. Unneccessarily detailed to the point of anal obsession, I'd call it. And certainly an excessive number of cults, sub-cults, hero cults - a whole load of right cults. RQ2 managed with a couple of dozen for every culture in Glorantha.

Wulf

 

[Adept]

I can't believe I'm hearing this. Are you saying all the stuff that's been produced for HeroWars & HeroQuest are crap? Thunder Rebels alone is a strong contender for the best RPG book ever. That's how one does a culture book with stuff relevant to actual play.

All of it? No. SOME of it, yes. Unneccessarily detailed to the point of anal obsession, I'd call it. And certainly an excessive number of cults, sub-cults, hero cults - a whole load of right cults. RQ2 managed with a couple of dozen for every culture in Glorantha.

Wulf

So what? If you don't like them, don't use them. It's not like that is all, or even a majority, of the material. If you don't like Elmal (which is one of the coolest gods, IMO) of Yinkin, just stick to the RQ2 handful of cults and cultures.

You still get really cool material abot blood money, longhouses and cattle raiding, and such. Things that really give your gamers a feel for the culture their character live in.

 

[homerjsinnott]

I can't believe I'm hearing this. Are you saying all the stuff that's been produced for HeroWars & HeroQuest are crap? Thunder Rebels alone is a strong contender for the best RPG book ever. That's how one does a culture book with stuff relevant to actual play.

All of it? No. SOME of it, yes. Unneccessarily detailed to the point of anal obsession, I'd call it.
And certainly an excessive number of cults, sub-cults, hero cults - a whole load of right cults. RQ2 managed with a couple of dozen for every culture in Pavis.

Wulf

Edited in italics for semi-correctness.

Here they are;

Pavis
Orlanth
Humakt
Yelmalio
Zola Fel
Ernalda
Chalana Arroy
Issaries
Stormbull
Zorak Zoran
Seven Mothers
Kyger Litor
Yelorna
Lankhor Mhy
Daka Fel
Aldyra
Eritha
Krasht
Bagog
Malia
Thanatar
Thed
Black Fang
Nysalor
Subere
Hunter


I seem to have gone over your couple of dozen and I haven't finished yet.

Yes I know that Pavis is a special case, but it is one very small part of Glorantha. And we both know that there were other non-Pavic cults officially in print during the great days of RQ2

If you like great big monolithic cults, great! But that's not how Gloranth(tm) is, or was, or is going to be, sorry.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

I seem to have gone over your couple of dozen and I haven't finished yet.

I was only counting player character cults, but even so that's only 2 1/2 dozen (but you missed out Yelorna!)

If you like great big monolithic cults, great! But that's not how Gloranth(tm) is, or was, or is going to be, sorry.

But that's EXACTLY how it was for all of RQ2, and for many people that's how it'll always be remembered. And fondly.

Wulf

 

[homerjsinnott]

I seem to have gone over your couple of dozen and I haven't finished yet.

I was only counting player character cults, but even so that's only 2 1/2 dozen (but you missed out Yelorna!)

If you like great big monolithic cults, great! But that's not how Gloranth(tm) is, or was, or is going to be, sorry.

But that's EXACTLY how it was for all of RQ2, and for many people that's how it'll always be remembered. And fondly.

Wulf

A couple is two?

But I thought Krasht was a player cult :wink:, but I will give you Bagog, and maybe Thanatar...maybe.

Waha, I knew there was one I missed!

You must admit you could see the big cracks in quite a few of the RQII Cults;Chalana Arroy, Orlanth, Than and Atyar, The Horned man/Daka Fel, Yelmalio, Hunter, Seven Mothers, Zola Fel (with the water spirits), and finally Black Fang who is described as a Hero rather than a God.

I really enjoyed RQII too, but I look back on it now and I see how big the spaces were and I'm please that they have now gone some-way to filling them.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

You must admit you could see the big cracks in quite a few of the RQII Cults;Chalana Arroy, Orlanth, Than and Atyar, The Horned man/Daka Fel, Yelmalio, Hunter, Seven Mothers, Zola Fel (with the water spirits), and finally Black Fang who is described as a Hero rather than a God.

Actually, I wouldn't be against the actual number of cults in HQ being made available in RQM. I'm rather fond of Yinkin and Vinga myself (even though Vinga was only included to give female characters a combat option which was only taken away after Orlanth was explicitly stated as male-only). But the multitude of barely-differentiated subcults was excessive and totally unnecesary. 30, if I remember correctly, for Orlanth, nearly as many for Ernalda, and multiples for every cult! Every player I know simply chose the same half-dozen, and frequently only after a frustrated search for one that combined the features they really wanted, and could never get as they were always split between subcults.

Hopefully this time Mongoose will remember this is a GAME, not some sort of pseudo-historical reproduction.

Wulf

 

[SteveMND]

Hopefully this time Mongoose will remember this is a GAME, not some sort of pseudo-historical reproduction.

Ironically, in my eyes, the fact that Glorantha is some sort of psuedo-historical reproduction is what made it such a great game in the first place.

I think that level of detail -- where things don't always work themselves out so neatly, and where things that can happen in the Real World (tm) can happen there as well -- was one of the greatest strengths of the setting. Glorantha is not for your casual gamer. Heck, it's not even for your typical average gamer.

In fact, to really get the most out of the setting, I suspect you need not just a decent education but also a passable understanding of philosophy, sociology and theology...

 

[andakitty]

Strange, that. I never liked Glorantha that much, past the bronze age feel. Just too strange, too much emphasis on cults and very strange elements. English Lit., philosophy, and sociology...and anthropology and history made up most of my course load into post grad territory, too. Always loved the game system, mostly, and was lured from playing AD&D the first time I picked up RQ2. Stormbringer was my favorite of all rpgs with a better system yet, IMO. I have never really 'gotten' ANY published setting. It sounds like some of you have more fun with the setting than actual game-play.

But I have always been a system monkey, speaking of monkeys. :roll:

 

[homerjsinnott]

In my eyes, the fact that Glorantha is some sort of psuedo-historical reproduction is what made it such a great game in the first place.


In fact, to really get the most out of the setting, I suspect you need not just a decent education but also a passable understanding of philosophy, sociology and theology...

Christ! I mean crumbs! Well thats buggered me then, my hons in Arch/Med Hist is a bit useless.

Hmmm, a degree in Classics/Sociotheolgy is what I need!
anyone know where I can get one?

 

[Archer]

Well, that is settled then. I visited www.glorantha.com to read some of the articles there. And what I read made me realize that Glorantha is a setting for you only if you are a 60+ years old "stuffy" and overintellectual PHD in philosophy, archeology, sociology, theology, mythology, etc. and get your kicks by proving to others of your kind how much "smarter" and "better" you are at understanding the "complex" and "unique" setting of Glorantha.
Seems most changes made now to the setting are made for the sake of change itself, so that you have something to argue about.

The people writing material for Glorantha needs to get an overload injection of two drugs called "fun" and "gamedesign".
If that does not work, I think we have to sedate them... :wink:

What little I knew of Gloranta in RQ3 was much more intresting than what seem to have been written for HeroQuest. Back then, the world were written to be played in, to have fun in. Not to be an intellectual battleground between old fogeys.

I'm seriously considering canceling my preorder of the Glorantha setting book. But then, I would like to see what the magic chapter in it has to offer...

 

[Urox]

What little I knew of Gloranta in RQ3 was much more intresting than what seem to have been written for HeroQuest.

And the later releases for RQ2 were superior to RQ3. Pavis/Big Rubble/Borderlands are outstanding, and I think someone else has already mentioned that Trollpak is probably the best fantasy RPG suppliment ever written.

 

[Archer]

What little I knew of Gloranta in RQ3 was much more intresting than what seem to have been written for HeroQuest.

And the later releases for RQ2 were superior to RQ3. Pavis/Big Rubble/Borderlands are outstanding, and I think someone else has already mentioned that Trollpak is probably the best fantasy RPG suppliment ever written.

I wish I had begun playing RQ2 with access to those outstanding supplements then (I take your word for their excellence), perhaps I would still play it if that were the case.

Now I belive that my main intrest in RQ will be the rules, not Glorantha. Hopefully other settings will follow Lankhmar.

I am not easily intimidated by either setting or rules, but what I saw on the official HeroQuest site actually made me flee (or at least retreat). I have never before seen RPG articles with a such a huge amount of boredom injected into them (my personal opionion).

 

[SteveMND]

Well, that is settled then. I visited www.glorantha.com to read some of the articles there. And what I read made me realize that Glorantha is a setting for you only if you are a 60+ years old "stuffy" and overintellectual PHD in philosophy, archeology, sociology, theology, mythology, etc. and get your kicks by proving to others of your kind how much "smarter" and "better" you are at understanding the "complex" and "unique" setting of Glorantha.

You know, I almost hate to suggest such a blasphemous concept, but maybe Glorantha can appeal to people that simply enjoy the rich detail of such a fantasy world, as opposed to merely being for folks that just like to engage in some sort of mental masturbation, as you seem to think?

The guy who runs glorantha.com, Greg Stafford, is the one who came up with the setting some 40-odd years ago. He, along with a very few other people, shares the distinction of creating a fantasy world that became popular enough that other people grew to like it and want to vicariously live out heroic adventures within it.

And, unlike some settings, it never really became a 'corporate' entity as far as I can tell. Greg largely retained hold of his literary child over the years, and as such, it was never seriously beholden to any one group of shareholders, penny pinchers or profit-maximizing marketing agents. When it got that way, it seems each time he took control over his IP again and started reworking the game as he saw best. This is not a bad thing.

The campaign setting has always been (and still is) one that is constantly changing as Greg writes new material, reworks older books, and otherwise adjusts things to fit better to what he envisioned. This also is not a bad thing. It certainly may not be the mass-market-appeal profitable kind of thing, but it's not a bad thing.

Greyhawk started out as Gygax's personal campaign setting, and it evolved greatly over the years. Eventually, it was (perhaps unwisely) sold off to TSR and then later to WotC, and in the process, it became not a living, breathing campaign world, but one in which the profits determined what would happen to it. Namely, it pretty much has been abandoned by the current copyright holder as a property that is not profitable enough to warrant publishing more stuff for it.

Similarly, the Forgotten Realms started out as Greenwood's home campaign that underwent the same sort of evolution over the years. While the FR still remains a viable profit-maker, WotC execs have stated before that setting and roleplaying 'flavor' books are not as profitable for them, so they often forgo such projects in favor of more rules-heavy 'crunchy' bits (which has proven to be more profitable and sought after by their customers).

To me, Glorantha is ALL flavor and setting. Greg was fortunate enough to find a set of game mechanics that fit well with the early game, and remains, IMHO, the best RPG mechanics out there. Greg, however, moved on to a different set of mechanics, which is fine, because while some feel the two are interchangeable, I think the mechanics and the setting are completely seperate. It's easy to appreciate the Glorantha books or their literary content alone, without even having to know anything about the mechanics. The same can be said about a handful of other game publications, but not many.

Which, incidently, is why I think it's a great thing that they are seperating the BRP-based games mechanic again from the setting in this new edition. Those that are so heavily oriented towards the mechanics, numbers and 'playability' of the system can have that all they want, and drop in some weak Realms-clone as the setting if they want. Or they can take a overly-detailed setting like Glorantha and drop it in. Or they can take anything in between, all as they see fit and as they feel is the best match of what they want out of the game. Different people find different things 'fun,' and an OGL design allows them to pick and choose things to best make that work for them.

So yeah, the Glorantha setting itself was never really written for the guys looking for a quick, fast, sit-down-and-play experience. It will never be a best-seller either, just for that same reason. And I much prefer it that way, frankly. Because I've seen what has to happen to turn something into a industry-dominating leading gaming publication, and it's seldom pretty.

 

[RMS]

Actually, I wouldn't be against the actual number of cults in HQ being made available in RQM. I'm rather fond of Yinkin and Vinga myself (even though Vinga was only included to give female characters a combat option which was only taken away after Orlanth was explicitly stated as male-only). But the multitude of barely-differentiated subcults was excessive and totally unnecesary. 30, if I remember correctly, for Orlanth, nearly as many for Ernalda, and multiples for every cult! Every player I know simply chose the same half-dozen, and frequently only after a frustrated search for one that combined the features they really wanted, and could never get as they were always split between subcults.

There are a lot of subcults, but you have to admit that it makes a lot more sense than RQ2 (or even RQ3, which handled the cults much better) to have versions of Orlanth and Ernalda available for all of those people who don't spend their lives adventuring. That's pretty much all that's been added. It's just fleshing them out. Now when we're told that most men in Sartar worship Orlanth we don't have to wonder why he only offers magic that's good for adventurers. It isn't anymore. We can see that Joe Dirtfarmer has some pretty helpful stuff and don't have to wonder why all the farmers don't worship Barntar primarily, rather than Orlanth.

Also, only a handfull of subcults are available at each locale, so players should only be choosing from a small subset of all the ones given. As to combining features they want, why didn't you just allow them to join multiple subcults? There's never been any restriction in RQ or HQ from joining multiple subcults of the same diety.

 

[RMS]

Well, that is settled then. I visited www.glorantha.com to read some of the articles there. What little I knew of Gloranta in RQ3 was much more intresting than what seem to have been written for HeroQuest. Back then, the world were written to be played in, to have fun in. Not to be an intellectual battleground between old fogeys.

I'm seriously considering canceling my preorder of the Glorantha setting book. But then, I would like to see what the magic chapter in it has to offer...

It sounds like you're going out of your way to find a reason to not like the world, in all honesty. Sure there are people that sit around and over intellectualize it, but the world is still perfectly playable. Lots of us do it with no problem, and the first rule to running Glorantha is to take just enough information to get you going and ignore the rest. Don't worry about philosophical arguements. Just make it your own and have fun with it. It really hasn't changed that much. There are small changes, but it's more fleshing out than anything and you can still run it like good ole' RQ2 or RQ3 and as long as you and your players have fun, what does it matter?

Plus, 2nd Age should be so different from 3rd Age that it'll look like a completely different game world. We'll get to explore it all again with just snippets to work from and filling in the rest ourselves.

 

[RMS]

I wish I had begun playing RQ2 with access to those outstanding supplements then (I take your word for their excellence), perhaps I would still play it if that were the case.

Now I belive that my main intrest in RQ will be the rules, not Glorantha. Hopefully other settings will follow Lankhmar.

I am not easily intimidated by either setting or rules, but what I saw on the official HeroQuest site actually made me flee (or at least retreat). I have never before seen RPG articles with a such a huge amount of boredom injected into them (my personal opionion).

Have you looked at the Glorantha reprints? Almost all of the RQ material has been reprinted in the last few years and is sold through Warehouse23 and directly from http://www.glorantha.info/index.html.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

There are a lot of subcults, but you have to admit that it makes a lot more sense than RQ2 (or even RQ3, which handled the cults much better) to have versions of Orlanth and Ernalda available for all of those people who don't spend their lives adventuring.

No, I don't. They are an unnecessary over-complication added in to make the whole think look more intellectual. It's consistant with the whole move in recent Gloranthan writing to bludgeon out anything that sounds simple or just plain fun, without some educational or ego-stroking content. It's a game. It doesn't have to be realistic, it just has to work.

Also, only a handfull of subcults are available at each locale, so players should only be choosing from a small subset of all the ones given.

And there it is again. I don't want to have to micromanage every aspect of every game, it's not meant to be a management exercise.

Wulf

 

[Adept]

Well, that is settled then. I visited www.glorantha.com to read some of the articles there. And what I read made me realize that Glorantha is a setting for you only if you are a 60+ years old "stuffy" and overintellectual PHD in philosophy, archeology, sociology, theology, mythology...

Hey, I'm just a bitg past thirty, and I've been RPG:ing with Glorantha since junior high. Of course I've played (and GM:ed) other things in addition, but Glorantha remains my true love. The setting has depth and flavour that is very much missign from most published RPG worlds.

The information is there for those who want it, but nobody is forcing you to read any of it. Personally I think a good GM needs a wide range of knowledgee, since he/she has to run the whole world and all the people and creatures ever encountered by the gamers. For Glorantha we a have a lot of that stuff available.

I'm pretty sure my gamers keep coming back for more because they enjoy the gaming, not to admire/show off the relative sizes of our brain cases.