captrooper
Mongoose
kintire said:What written evidence? Reliable, and from temporally close enough to count (i.e., not Bede's axe grinding for his own purposes)? There ain't much. And what archaeological evidence?
All of your written evidence, from Gildas through Nennius through Bede... all of it concurs that the conquest was violent. So does the oral tradition from both sides. The evidence of refortification is clear. Not only that, but it wasn't a new phenomenon. Saxons had been attacking south eastern Britain since well before the Romans left, and the Saxon Shore defences are well attested, both historically and in terms of remains.
Other than Hengest/Horsa and the Finburgh fragment I'm not sure I'm aware of anything that qualifies as oral tradition from the A-S side. The evidence of refortification? Any chance of a reference, as I honestly can't recall anything about Romano-British refortification, and I'd be very interested on reading up on it. Definitely an interesting point.
The Saxon shore forts are hypothesised to even be called that because they were manned with germanic auxillaries by the Romans (I think Frank Stenton is a reference on this).
kintire said:This is the age of the comitatus - and none were so big that the land around could not support them. There are no great armies clashing in a protracted Anglo-Saxon vs Celtic war. Yeah, there are some bush wars,
Serious, high grade and long lasting wars do not require "Great Armies". Early (and indeed middle and late) Medieval wars didn't work like that. Battles were rare, small scale actions very common. You won (usually) by making land to dangerous for your opponent to live in, and preventing him from doing the same to you, not by smashing his army in battle, although if you could do that it was a win. Even then, what about Badon and Dyrham?
I didn't suggest that there were not battles, or even limited wars. Of course there was armed conflict, just not a massive all encompassing war as some people seem to believe. The wars are shorter, more local, and much more limited than people imagine. Assimiliation takes place at the same time.
I think perhaps your comments about knocking out the ruling class mixed with mine about treaty weddings may actually be closer to the truth.
if it's not a cultural invasion then why the complete change in language so quickly? Why the change in material culture? Religion?
kintire said:This is exactly why it looks military. If too cultures merge you expect both cultures to contribute to the result. The fact that the emergent culture and language was almost totally Germanic militates against cultural conquest not for it.
Well yes and no. IIRC it's hypothesised modern English has it's sentence stucture due to the influence of non-native Briton speakers who took up the language (I say recall, because I have no idea where I saw that). I think the militaristic side is played up too much. The germanics came from area that were less fertile a lot of the time (the Angles from Scandinavia etc). Their farming methods and crops may well have had a significant advantage in Britain's particularly fertile environment (this however is speculation on my part). That could have had an influence too!
It's a fascinating part of history and one of the riched IMO for stealing for RPGs.
Edited to straighten out the quotes...