Elfs and Dwarfs - Political correctness gone mad!

kintire said:
What written evidence? Reliable, and from temporally close enough to count (i.e., not Bede's axe grinding for his own purposes)? There ain't much. And what archaeological evidence?


All of your written evidence, from Gildas through Nennius through Bede... all of it concurs that the conquest was violent. So does the oral tradition from both sides. The evidence of refortification is clear. Not only that, but it wasn't a new phenomenon. Saxons had been attacking south eastern Britain since well before the Romans left, and the Saxon Shore defences are well attested, both historically and in terms of remains.

Other than Hengest/Horsa and the Finburgh fragment I'm not sure I'm aware of anything that qualifies as oral tradition from the A-S side. The evidence of refortification? Any chance of a reference, as I honestly can't recall anything about Romano-British refortification, and I'd be very interested on reading up on it. Definitely an interesting point.
The Saxon shore forts are hypothesised to even be called that because they were manned with germanic auxillaries by the Romans (I think Frank Stenton is a reference on this).

kintire said:
This is the age of the comitatus - and none were so big that the land around could not support them. There are no great armies clashing in a protracted Anglo-Saxon vs Celtic war. Yeah, there are some bush wars,

Serious, high grade and long lasting wars do not require "Great Armies". Early (and indeed middle and late) Medieval wars didn't work like that. Battles were rare, small scale actions very common. You won (usually) by making land to dangerous for your opponent to live in, and preventing him from doing the same to you, not by smashing his army in battle, although if you could do that it was a win. Even then, what about Badon and Dyrham?

I didn't suggest that there were not battles, or even limited wars. Of course there was armed conflict, just not a massive all encompassing war as some people seem to believe. The wars are shorter, more local, and much more limited than people imagine. Assimiliation takes place at the same time.
I think perhaps your comments about knocking out the ruling class mixed with mine about treaty weddings may actually be closer to the truth.


if it's not a cultural invasion then why the complete change in language so quickly? Why the change in material culture? Religion?

kintire said:
This is exactly why it looks military. If too cultures merge you expect both cultures to contribute to the result. The fact that the emergent culture and language was almost totally Germanic militates against cultural conquest not for it.

Well yes and no. IIRC it's hypothesised modern English has it's sentence stucture due to the influence of non-native Briton speakers who took up the language (I say recall, because I have no idea where I saw that). I think the militaristic side is played up too much. The germanics came from area that were less fertile a lot of the time (the Angles from Scandinavia etc). Their farming methods and crops may well have had a significant advantage in Britain's particularly fertile environment (this however is speculation on my part). That could have had an influence too!

It's a fascinating part of history and one of the riched IMO for stealing for RPGs.

Edited to straighten out the quotes...
 
Dammit I've done it again. I've picked a fight with people who know what they're talking about...d'oh!

High quality discussion by the way
 
I've seen these discussions elsewhere for a long, long time.

On the one hand are people who claim that all migration was the result of cultural seep, with cultures slowly moving through an area and dominant cultures slowly taking over/displacing the other cultures.

On the other hand are people who claim that all migration is the result of warfare and that dominant cultures are put into place by defeating previous cultures.

The answer is almost certainly somewhere in between.

Taking examples:

We do know that the Roman legions were put under pressure by waves of incoming "barbarians" and that legions were recalled and Rome was conquered by barbarian invasions, as were large areas of the Roman Empire. I cannot really accept the idea that the Roman Empire decided to live harmoniously with Franks, Goths, Visigoths, Huns and so on and voluntarily decided to give up its territory.

When the legions left Britannia, the same pressures were present there and the island was settled by Germanic/Scandinavian people. There is archaeological evidence of settlement abandonment in the following centuries and also evidence of continuing settlement during the same time. So, some areas were abandoned and some carried on. But, a couple of centuries on, there were definitely Angle/Saxon/Jute kingdoms spread through England. The Scots invaded from Ireland, set up their kingdom in the Western Isles and also some in Wales and over the next few hundred years, spread their influence throughout Scotland, displacing the Britons and their language. Since the Picts were supposed to have been warlike, it is probable that there were battles. Similarly, there are epics of battles between the Britons and the invaders (The Men of the North in Cumbria is an example). Later on, the Danes invaded and set up the Danelaw in England and several kingdoms in Scotland and Ireland. These were definitely invasions, but there was also cultural exchanges involved.

Further east, there are examples of the Alans, Huns, Turks and Mongols who regularly moved out of the steppes and moved westwards and eastwards. Some of these were simple migrations with no conquests, but some were conquests, as attested by the Romans, for instance, who had to buy off several barbarian tribes, and the Byzantines, who finally succumbed to the Turks. Extrapolating backwards, the exact same pressures probably existed in earlier times, so the Indo-European steppe peoples probably moved eastwards and westwards in much the same fashion after around 2000BC, or perhaps earlier. Some of these would have been migrations, others may have been conquests, but if an area does not have large numbers of towns, it is difficult to describe taking over the area as a conquest. Where you have two nomadic or semi-nomadic cultures, is it a conquest when one of them forces the other one out of an area?

India is more complicated because you are talking about ethnic and religious matters as well. Broadly, Southern India does seem to have different languages to Northern India and many Northern Indian languages (including Pakistan/Bangladesh and Afghanistan) belong to the Indo-European language family. So, some kind of migration seems to have occureed, if you accept the origin of the Indo-Europeans on the steppes. Later on, the same things happened with Tamerlane, the Turkic Moghuls and the Delhi Sultanates, who introduced Islam to the area and were definitely conquerers. Alexander the Great was brought to a standstill by the various kingdoms in India, so they had military capability back then and presumably had similar capability in the past, so I would be surprised that they didn't resist wholesale movement into their areas. I don't know much about Hindu Mythology/Religion, but what i have read does seem to support the idea that at least some of the Hindu Gods were introduced by invaders and the caste system seems to have been originally Aryan.

So, it is complicated. Personally, I think that the denial of conquests is an oversimplification and that a lot of movement/migration involved warfare. Whether this warfare resulted in actual conquest or just a rebalancing of the local people depends on the particular area. But, you can't explain everything by marriages between nobles or the movement of small family groups.
 
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