The Liandra was a minbari ship used by the rangers way back before and during the shadow war - yes, it would make a good skirmish or patrol level ship. But I wouldn't give it to the ISA - it's clear that by the time of LotR, the Liandra is the last one of her class and completely obsolete.
EA vs. Vree: Remember Area 51!
- Thread starter prelude_to_war
- Start date
I talked to Ripple about this battle on Sunday and he and I are of a like mindset about a couple of things.
First, use the fighters to go after lower hulled ships, especially for the EA who is boresight dependent. By eliminating the opponents small ships, you eliminate the initiative sinks being used against you.
Second, The hermes and the Chronos were deployed incorrectly. The hermes should have been deployed in back as fire support units while the Chronos should have been deployed in front where they have the chance to influence the battle.
Third, the omegas were deployed on opposite sides of the fleet. This allowed the vree to engage the Omegas one at a time and overwhelm them with firepower. 2 Squadroned Omegas pack a really heavy punch.
Fourth, the size of the battle may have skewed the effectiveness of preludes fighters. By playing at 3 War, it allowed Ripple to field a significant amount of Hull 5 and 6 ships. This reduced the effective hitting power of the T-Bots. The thought is that it may only be a problem for the Vree at lower PL levels where the 2" just dice weapon of the T-bolt will be able to do more damage at the mostly hull 4 ships.
I might try to get a game in vs Ripple playing either Early or 3rd age EA vs his Vree this week. This will be time dependent, as I have had very little of that lately.
Dave
First, use the fighters to go after lower hulled ships, especially for the EA who is boresight dependent. By eliminating the opponents small ships, you eliminate the initiative sinks being used against you.
Second, The hermes and the Chronos were deployed incorrectly. The hermes should have been deployed in back as fire support units while the Chronos should have been deployed in front where they have the chance to influence the battle.
Third, the omegas were deployed on opposite sides of the fleet. This allowed the vree to engage the Omegas one at a time and overwhelm them with firepower. 2 Squadroned Omegas pack a really heavy punch.
Fourth, the size of the battle may have skewed the effectiveness of preludes fighters. By playing at 3 War, it allowed Ripple to field a significant amount of Hull 5 and 6 ships. This reduced the effective hitting power of the T-Bots. The thought is that it may only be a problem for the Vree at lower PL levels where the 2" just dice weapon of the T-bolt will be able to do more damage at the mostly hull 4 ships.
I might try to get a game in vs Ripple playing either Early or 3rd age EA vs his Vree this week. This will be time dependent, as I have had very little of that lately.
Dave
It needn't be the Liandra per se, but the rangers do operate as an intellegence corps and special ops group as well as a military (perhaps more so) - so I'm sure they would have replaced them with something equivalent; i.e. a small ship that carries enough Minbari hardware to keep it out of trouble but is not demonstrably Minbari by appearance and is definitely not a White Star....(It's hard to imagine that anyone wouldn't recognise a White Star-type hull by the Crusade era, which makes keeping a low profile kind of difficult).
Plus it also offers a choice for the rangers with an in-service date old enough to be usable pre-ISA...
Plus it also offers a choice for the rangers with an in-service date old enough to be usable pre-ISA...
prelude_to_war
Mongoose
Sure, but the approach was to attack with the fighters en-masse in order to overwhelm defending fighters and throw as much AD in order to destroy the target. Still, even if they take out a lower hulled ship, overlapping fields of AF weapons could still lay waste to those fighters - not to mention possible explosions of Vree ships.Davesaint said:
No arguement here, but even deployed in a better way I'm not sure how this would have helped fighter effectiveness, which was the point of this excercise.Davesaint said:
Even squadroned, the damage they did was negligible. Target selection could have been different but again, not sure how this could've helped the fighter combat part of things.Davesaint said:
Ah, the meat of this discussion. This being the case, fighters firing first is only a broken mechanic in certain situations depending on the PL and hulls of the ships. If that's the case, the question is not with the game mechanic of fighters but in fleet type and selection.Davesaint said:
Any given weapon will excel against a particular fleet/ship and suffer against another. In this case - massed fighters good against low hull, not good against high hulls. Is fighters firing first a broken and bad thing? To my mind, no.
prelude_to_war said:
Prelude,
The only concern I have is to make sure that there is no gaping hole for exploitation. How does this rule work at raid and skirmish level where there may be limited choices of ships for deployment? I just have a hard time formulating an opinion on a given rule with only one playtest game. We have been playing a few games with the fighters firing first rules and have had mixed opinions on the rule. I think I would like to see a broader test of these rules before I form an opinion. Frankly if the fleet I run for the tournament does well, it might just be due to the fighters it brings.
Dave
Nice battle pics- I *LOVE* the paint job on those Vree ships.
And re: a new ISA fleet, check out my Paladins & Pirates supplement over at ACTA Fleet Command (under Projects page). Haven't been doing much ACTA recently so the second part (w/ scenarios) and other stuff is on hold...but at least the new ISA ships might give you some ideas.
OK, that was a shameless plug ^^
And re: a new ISA fleet, check out my Paladins & Pirates supplement over at ACTA Fleet Command (under Projects page). Haven't been doing much ACTA recently so the second part (w/ scenarios) and other stuff is on hold...but at least the new ISA ships might give you some ideas.
OK, that was a shameless plug ^^
CodeofArms
Mongoose
So this battle proves fighters going first is not so bad then? Have you considered using 3rd Age Earth, Early Era earth etc? You could even use tigers and see how they play in the Fighter firing first debate.
Okay chiming in....
I almost did a long minute by minute appraoch to this, maybe this is better.
a- Setup hurt the EA worse than almost anything.
too spread - weakened secondary weapon support and spread fighters
inverted formation - support ships/initiative sinks were forward and squadroned rather than back and individual, brawlers were rear and individual rather than forward and squadroned. Snipers were not together for mutual support when the brawl eventually happened.
too close to me - he won initiative and could have chosen a corner to come fighting out of, maximises his time to organize flights and take sniper shots.
b- Target choice is about removing dice.
Prelude targeted my toughest ships for the first several turns, but I had much easier kills right next to them that threw almost as many dice. Concentrate on reducing my number of dice so I cannot mutually cover myself and fighters will become more effective.
It took the anti-fighter guns of three Xill and three Xaak to kill two thirds of you fighter strike on the Xill squadron, If I had been short even one more Xill you might have been able to continue the strike.
c- Fighter tactics are about figuring how many you need for the mission and not dragging extras.
The initial flights started on the board were enough to kill my backfield ships, do not wait to get them moving. In this fight fighters were a primary weapon and we were still playing them like finishing weapons, they needed to get moving sooner. As I was closing, they could just as easily joined up for massed strikes coming from behind.
Also the T-bolt is far superior to the Aurora for use against Vree. The hull five is a big deal, the extra dice are a big deal, the loss of one dogfight...eh. I do have a +1 dogfight fighter, but its not enough matter given the numbers. Killing my Tzymms was an afterthought, though good placement did force many fighters beyond two inches so they did their job I guess. With T-bolts you need far fewer to get the job done.
Now in tourney...maybe with Raziks/Sentris/Nials out there...but never more than a third I'd say.
As too the test aspect...this turned out to be more a test of EA vs Vree than a test of fighters vs low hull/low damage. I will try for a lower pl fight and see if I get the results I expect. Again overall I would like to be wrong, so don't think I would throw a game. And I note again that I do not think it is that big an issue when flights are pretty close in numbers, but when one side has lots of fighters and the other does not you can see the issue. Also the vps for 'free' flights vs purchased wings matters here, as some races have to purchase wings to have much of a fighter presence.
ripple
I almost did a long minute by minute appraoch to this, maybe this is better.
a- Setup hurt the EA worse than almost anything.
too spread - weakened secondary weapon support and spread fighters
inverted formation - support ships/initiative sinks were forward and squadroned rather than back and individual, brawlers were rear and individual rather than forward and squadroned. Snipers were not together for mutual support when the brawl eventually happened.
too close to me - he won initiative and could have chosen a corner to come fighting out of, maximises his time to organize flights and take sniper shots.
b- Target choice is about removing dice.
Prelude targeted my toughest ships for the first several turns, but I had much easier kills right next to them that threw almost as many dice. Concentrate on reducing my number of dice so I cannot mutually cover myself and fighters will become more effective.
It took the anti-fighter guns of three Xill and three Xaak to kill two thirds of you fighter strike on the Xill squadron, If I had been short even one more Xill you might have been able to continue the strike.
c- Fighter tactics are about figuring how many you need for the mission and not dragging extras.
The initial flights started on the board were enough to kill my backfield ships, do not wait to get them moving. In this fight fighters were a primary weapon and we were still playing them like finishing weapons, they needed to get moving sooner. As I was closing, they could just as easily joined up for massed strikes coming from behind.
Also the T-bolt is far superior to the Aurora for use against Vree. The hull five is a big deal, the extra dice are a big deal, the loss of one dogfight...eh. I do have a +1 dogfight fighter, but its not enough matter given the numbers. Killing my Tzymms was an afterthought, though good placement did force many fighters beyond two inches so they did their job I guess. With T-bolts you need far fewer to get the job done.
Now in tourney...maybe with Raziks/Sentris/Nials out there...but never more than a third I'd say.
As too the test aspect...this turned out to be more a test of EA vs Vree than a test of fighters vs low hull/low damage. I will try for a lower pl fight and see if I get the results I expect. Again overall I would like to be wrong, so don't think I would throw a game. And I note again that I do not think it is that big an issue when flights are pretty close in numbers, but when one side has lots of fighters and the other does not you can see the issue. Also the vps for 'free' flights vs purchased wings matters here, as some races have to purchase wings to have much of a fighter presence.
ripple
LaranosTZ
Mongoose
On another side note, someone mentioned above that they gutted one of the centauri ships using white-star fighters, with redirected fire from scouts.
I would like to point out that you cannot redirect fighter fire, since the scout trait specifically says that 'ships' firing are allowed to reroll one weapon. Fighters have been repeatedly ruled as 'not ships'.
I would like to point out that you cannot redirect fighter fire, since the scout trait specifically says that 'ships' firing are allowed to reroll one weapon. Fighters have been repeatedly ruled as 'not ships'.
prelude_to_war
Mongoose
It was a good fight, and I enjoyed it despite losing (I always enjoy a game with a lot of minis on the table!). Yeah, I've had a number of games where I replay it in my head - specifically campaign games in which I get smacked.Ripple said:
Ok...Yes I understand that this was to test fighters shooting 1st. I also understand the idea of having some Vree fighters out there...
However...the Vree "strong point" (for lack of a better term) are their antimatter weapons (mostly a-m torps on the Xaak) and their anti fighter weapons. Taking Vree fighters in a game is just not a option. Sure you can get in close and throw a lot of dice at once (group fire).
Honestly...even if fighters go 1st there is only one reason (in my opinion) to take Vree fighters and that is to use scanners to full vs Minbari, no other reason at all.
Again, I understand what you were trying to do...and I agree with it. Just commenting on the useful-ness of Vree fighters.
My two cents worth.
However...the Vree "strong point" (for lack of a better term) are their antimatter weapons (mostly a-m torps on the Xaak) and their anti fighter weapons. Taking Vree fighters in a game is just not a option. Sure you can get in close and throw a lot of dice at once (group fire).
Honestly...even if fighters go 1st there is only one reason (in my opinion) to take Vree fighters and that is to use scanners to full vs Minbari, no other reason at all.
Again, I understand what you were trying to do...and I agree with it. Just commenting on the useful-ness of Vree fighters.
My two cents worth.
Hhmm...have to disagree with your assesment of Vree fighters.
They have five AD to throw...that may be the highest next to the Sky Serpent of any fighter in the game.
They have a +1 dogfight rating. not a stand out but the best the League has to offer (+2 if you field the Brokadoes).
Three are perhaps marginally more surviable than the equivalent patrol hull for low PL/low points games.
Now that is not saying BUYING flights is ever worthwhile, but if it is, then the Tzymm is actually a fairly good fighter. The big failing in comparrison to other fighters is the defense is too weak for what you get with only hull 4 / dodge 3. I think you need either hull 5 or dodge 2+ to make flights live long enough to engage...but thats just me.
Ripple
They have five AD to throw...that may be the highest next to the Sky Serpent of any fighter in the game.
They have a +1 dogfight rating. not a stand out but the best the League has to offer (+2 if you field the Brokadoes).
Three are perhaps marginally more surviable than the equivalent patrol hull for low PL/low points games.
Now that is not saying BUYING flights is ever worthwhile, but if it is, then the Tzymm is actually a fairly good fighter. The big failing in comparrison to other fighters is the defense is too weak for what you get with only hull 4 / dodge 3. I think you need either hull 5 or dodge 2+ to make flights live long enough to engage...but thats just me.
Ripple
Ripple,
I understand what you are saying about the Tzymm and I argee what you are saying. But I have fou nd that is is not a good "cost effective buy" ship wise. I can take a vaarl or (even better) a vaarka and do more damage with it in addition to the scout abilities. Now having said that if....big I, big F...if the fighter "problem" ever gets fixed...I will be happy to take a patrol point or two worth of Tzymm's. Till that time however...I'll keep them on the back burner.
Now to fix this fighter...I agree with the hull 5 and/or dodge +2. If you wanted to make it a real patrol choice give it both the hull and the dodge. Now since I play Vree :twisted: I would also add +1 to dogfight and take off the weak on the twin light antiproton guns...but i'm a little funny that way.
I want my boys to have a better lifespan in a battle! LOL
I understand what you are saying about the Tzymm and I argee what you are saying. But I have fou nd that is is not a good "cost effective buy" ship wise. I can take a vaarl or (even better) a vaarka and do more damage with it in addition to the scout abilities. Now having said that if....big I, big F...if the fighter "problem" ever gets fixed...I will be happy to take a patrol point or two worth of Tzymm's. Till that time however...I'll keep them on the back burner.
Now to fix this fighter...I agree with the hull 5 and/or dodge +2. If you wanted to make it a real patrol choice give it both the hull and the dodge. Now since I play Vree :twisted: I would also add +1 to dogfight and take off the weak on the twin light antiproton guns...but i'm a little funny that way.
I want my boys to have a better lifespan in a battle! LOL
I'm weighing in a little late on this one, but I really think your biggest problem here was the use of a Poseidon. Everyone just wants the thing to be cool and to work, but it just plain does not and is a waste of time. Had you forgone the Poseidon you could have gotten 18 flights of Thunderbolts for the same war point. That's 18 flights out and ready to go rather than waiting for them all to launch. Add in the fighters that could have been pre-deployed from your other ships and you're looking at a toal of 26 flights deployed and 6 waiting to launch from the Omegas.
I'd imagine the battle would have been different if you hadn't wasted your time trying to launch and form up, but rather shot right in on the offensive. Sure the fleet carrier traits are nice, but they still don't justify the cost of the thing.
I'd imagine the battle would have been different if you hadn't wasted your time trying to launch and form up, but rather shot right in on the offensive. Sure the fleet carrier traits are nice, but they still don't justify the cost of the thing.
I don't know, Poseidon is carrier 8 so that is 2 turns to empty the hangers. I probably would have sent the fighters in in 2 smaller waves. When you do have that many fighters on the board the Fleet Carrier recovery rolls are very useful and you will likely recover more than 2 flights of them during the game.
