EA vs. Vree: Remember Area 51!

So Ripple and I will be meeting up on Friday to play out a 3pt. War EA vs. Vree. The intent is to test the fighters firing first rule and possible disparity it represents for races which are light in the fighter department - Vree in this case.

What Ripple may likely use:
3 Xaak, 3 Xill, 3 Xixx, 2 Vaarl, 12 flights

What I'll likely use:
1 Poseidon, 2 Omegas*, 2 Chronos, 6 Hermes (total of 30 flights)

I'm going fighter heavy without getting ridiculous. Ideally I'd like to field a fleet with minis so things need to be realistic (I only have 1 Avenger).

*I could use 2 Marathons. The 2/45 turns is huge against the SM Vree and I think they could really do some damage. I'd be down to 26 flights in this case. However since the purpose of this game is to test fighters-firing-first, maybe I should stick with the Omegas...decisions, decisions.

I'll be taking some pics and documenting the action for the post game report. Ripple will supply the Vree side of things.

For fluff purposes, we'll call this game 'Remember Area 51!'
 
Perhaps 1 Marathon and 1 Omega? You would only loose out on 2 fighter flights then, which the Fleet Carier of the Poseidon should easily be able to compensate for. 28 flights is still loads of them.
 
prelude_to_war said:
So Ripple and I will be meeting up on Friday to play out a 3pt. War EA vs. Vree. The intent is to test the fighters firing first rule and possible disparity it represents for races which are light in the fighter department - Vree in this case.

What Ripple may likely use:
3 Xaak, 3 Xill, 3 Xixx, 2 Vaarl, 12 flights

What I'll likely use:
1 Poseidon, 2 Omegas*, 2 Chronos, 6 Hermes (total of 30 flights)

I'm going fighter heavy without getting ridiculous. Ideally I'd like to field a fleet with minis so things need to be realistic (I only have 1 Avenger).

*I could use 2 Marathons. The 2/45 turns is huge against the SM Vree and I think they could really do some damage. I'd be down to 26 flights in this case. However since the purpose of this game is to test fighters-firing-first, maybe I should stick with the Omegas...decisions, decisions.

I'll be taking some pics and documenting the action for the post game report. Ripple will supply the Vree side of things.

For fluff purposes, we'll call this game 'Remember Area 51!'

I have 2 FA scale Avengers mostly painted PTW. I could leave them with Sean tonight if you want to use them.


Dave
 
Well, Since I play Vree 99% of the time I can tell you one thing about this battle. It's a bad day to be a fighter jock! The Vree are one of the two most anti-fighter fleets (the other being Minbari....damm mini beams) in the game. once they get with in 5"...those fighters will drop like flies...If it was me playing the Vree...I would take 6 Xaak's and just take out all the fighters. What good does this do in testing the Vree fighters? We all know that Vree have nothing (except for the new war level ship) that can carry them. So, really...fighters are a waste! Take all the Xaak's and make it a fun time for all! Remember...only you can take 24 Ad of anti-matter torpedoes.
 
Garibaldi said:
Well, Since I play Vree 99% of the time I can tell you one thing about this battle. It's a bad day to be a fighter jock! The Vree are one of the two most anti-fighter fleets (the other being Minbari....damm mini beams) in the game. once they get with in 5"...those fighters will drop like flies...If it was me playing the Vree...I would take 6 Xaak's and just take out all the fighters. What good does this do in testing the Vree fighters? We all know that Vree have nothing (except for the new war level ship) that can carry them. So, really...fighters are a waste! Take all the Xaak's and make it a fun time for all! Remember...only you can take 24 Ad of anti-matter torpedoes.
The fighters are firing before the capitals. It's sought a test, whether fighters are too much when firing first.
 
Garibaldi said:
Well, Since I play Vree 99% of the time I can tell you one thing about this battle. It's a bad day to be a fighter jock! The Vree are one of the two most anti-fighter fleets (the other being Minbari....damm mini beams) in the game. once they get with in 5"...those fighters will drop like flies...If it was me playing the Vree...I would take 6 Xaak's and just take out all the fighters. What good does this do in testing the Vree fighters? We all know that Vree have nothing (except for the new war level ship) that can carry them. So, really...fighters are a waste! Take all the Xaak's and make it a fun time for all! Remember...only you can take 24 Ad of anti-matter torpedoes.

I think this is to test the new fighter rules. The argument goes that with hull 4, low crew/damage scores, and anti-fighter weapons firing after the fighters fire, that Vree saucers will go kaboom before they can slaughter the fighters that are swarming them. Having great anti-fighter weapons means nothing if your ship dies before using them.
 
Garibaldi said:
Well, Since I play Vree 99% of the time I can tell you one thing about this battle. It's a bad day to be a fighter jock!
Indeed, anal probes for the EA all around.

I ended up going with 2 Omegas to emphasize fighter superiority. Here is initial setup:
IMG_1549.jpg


Omegas on the flanks move in, Heavy Laser Cannons blazing away - and missing. Poseidon spews out fighters in the center while Hermes' move up and CAF Vree support ships. The squadroned Zakks move up and proceed to decimate the Hermes, despite their skeleton crewing a Skirmish Vree ship. For whatever reason all but one of my crits resulted in crew losses for the Vree. Nice to kill lots of little grey aliens, but not helpful in trying to win the game.
IMG_1550.jpg


With the Hermes out of the picture, the Omegas barrel forward, trying to take out the lead Zakk. The Poseidon and her 2 Chronos escorts move forward.
IMG_1551.jpg


Fire in the hole! Or not...
IMG_1552.jpg


The Zaaks move past the Omegas, scratched by Omega secondary weaponry. The Omegas however manage to take out some of the smaller ships in the Vree backfield. At this point the Omegas are doomed to Boresightedness, with the Hermes (i.e. initiative sinks) taken out.

IMG_1553.jpg

Also at this point, EA fighters have moved in to swamp a Zakk and try to set up attacks on the smaller ships.

After 5 rounds, we concluded the game. EA had the Poseidon and an Omega both relatively fresh - and a large contingent of fighters. Vree had lost a handful of Raid and Skirmish level ships (Ripple will have to chime in on what those were - the names/ships of the darned aliens confuse me!)
IMG_1554.jpg


We went into this game testing the effects of fighters firing first on fighter-weak races such as the Vree. As you can see, the fighters were overall not as effective as we - or at least I - thought. My fighter mix was 50/50 T-bolt/Fury. Post game, we thought most or all T-bolts would probably be the way to go, what with the Fleet Carrier bonus to dogfight and all (net +2 EA vs. +0 Vree). Additionally, even with dogfight supremacy, Vree ships and their mountains of AF were able to clear the skies of Furies/Bolts. After decimating Xills via dogfight, my fighters were then sitting ducks to retaliatory Vree AF guns. Also, towards the end of the game when the Poseidon was launching recovered fighters (think I recovered roughly half of those lost), since they can't move in the same turn they've launched, they were subject to severe muggings from surrounding Vree ships. The 1 War point invested in the Poseidon certainly did not have a positive return. In retrospect, Marathons and Apollos would probably be in order (in place of the Omegas as well).

Granted, deployment was an issue (Hermes deployed too close, Poseidon and Chronos too far); Omegas beams missed completely on two salvos, maybe even a third; and target choice of the Omegas could have been an issue (my approach was for them to try and take out a Zaak whereas Ripple thought they should've focused on the Raid of Skirmish PL ships instead). Although due to deployment, launching, etc. the fighters only mobbed a Zakk (ineffective due to it being hull 6) and one other Raid (?) level ship. Even with the Raid level ship, the fighters managed to hurt but not kill it. All of the other juicy targets my fighters would have enjoyed remained way back in the Vree backfield. Maybe I should have moved fighters upon launching but I wanted to mass them first, then go after targets.

Despite all of these issues, the use of fighters and their new mechanic - to my mind - did not become a huge factor either way. In fact, depending on how we score it, they were a huge liability. The big factors in this game would be fleet selection, unfamiliarity with the Vree (is it even spelled Zakk? Zaak? Xaak??) and strategy. I've always been pro-fighters-move-and-fire-first as a mechanic and still feel the same. Ripple?
 
Meh, I always did think the whole Vree-are-gonna-get-killed bitching was just that, a bunch of bitching. Nice to see I was right. If fighters really had super knockout weapons I could see it then. But they don't, oddball WS and vorlon fighters aside. But as it stands, vree ships have more than enough AF weaponry to knock the snot out of any little prancing fighter that mugs one of thier buddies.
 
If they had swarmed the lower hull ships rather than the hull 6 one and been used more agressively rather than waiting for all the fighters to be massed at once do you think things might've been different?
 
If they swamped the smaller ships they might have got a a kill, but equally they would have killed one skirmish ship and the nearby ships (should) then have shredded them with AF fire. The point is that though fighters can get in there and do some damage first they cant win the game on their own!
 
Well in a recent game 5 WS fighters succeeded in skeletoning an Adira in one turn - admittedly via a 6-5 critical and fire was redirected onto it, but then 15 dice ap/dd/precise will make a mess of most things. They all but one promptly died to stupid amounts of TL fire of course!
For those that are interested the Adira finally went down to fire from the port Molecular Pulsars of the White Star Carrier.
 
True - but then all questions about fighter effectiveness have to include the clause 'except white star fighters'. They do cost as much as a damn Vorchan-class gunship, after all...
 
Well two things of very important note there:

1) Big crits whilst certainly not uncommon cannot really be pointed to as examples that things are overpowered. They are freak occurences.

2) This is a very very important one: Fighters can NOT benefit from redirect fire. The rule is quite specific on this, it allows you to redirect fire from SHIPS, not AUXILLIARY CRAFT. The distinction between the two is quite important

oh and lastly:

WS Fighters do not count anyway. The whole 'lets expand the ISA list by sticking whitestar in front of a bunch naval designations and stretching/squashing the model' idea is frankly stupid and I hate them with a passion. They added three new ships so why not use the 3 other ISA ships we actually SEE in B5? (namely the Bluestar (could have made it a fighter class instead of the WS fighter if they liked) and the two things you see in LoTR (and please lets not have another 'LoTR' sucked argument, it was poo yes, but the ships were still better than just 'hey lets stretch a whistestar out, make it uglier and call it a new ship')

Ok so that was a bit off topic but still....
 
But isn't the Blue Star called that just because its like a White Star, but blue? I don't think it was ever named in the series, so perhaps it is the White Star fighter...

The dodgy Human-Minbari hybrid ship was supposed to be unique i think, but the Liandra would make quite a good patrol or skirmish ship (as long as no one mentions fire control...)

Ooh and the one at the beginning that the raiders trash...

Nick
 
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