Don't write an Aslan sourcebook...

[rust]

Sorry, but no matter how they are done, if these Aslan can be played as player characters, then they are "just humans in rubber suites".

I do not think so. It is quite possible to describe aliens in a way that en-
ables both styles of playing them, the "humans in rubber suits" as well
as "really alien aliens", depending on the willingness and ability of the
player in question. A good example of such descriptions are the Kzinti
in the Ringworld RPG.

 

[StephenT]

However, the concept that warriors are somehow more honourable and hence better than soldiers is also fast becoming cliche. There are many historical examples of warriors essentially sacrificing their cause, their people, even their families to gain personal honour; beaten by soldiers who sacrifice personal honour for survival of the group.

Spoken like a true female Aslan! The men's childish obsession with honour and personal courage and fighting duels all the time is all very well (and can be sexy sometimes, I admit) but if you want to actually win the war, you need to put a woman in charge.

Well, when I say "in charge", you'll still have some man as the figurehead, as long as it's clearly understood the woman makes the real decisions. You humans had something the same in your World War One where the male German Hindenburg had the female Ludendorff as his Chief of Staff and advisor.
[/Fteirle female POV]

 

[walkir]

However, the concept that warriors are somehow more honourable and hence better than soldiers is also fast becoming cliche. There are many historical examples of warriors essentially sacrificing their cause, their people, even their families to gain personal honour; beaten by soldiers who sacrifice personal honour for survival of the group.

That's a de jure- vs. a de facto-warrior.

But being no native speaker, I might mix up the definitions of "warrior" and "soldier" as used in English.

 

[daryen]

Sorry, but no matter how they are done, if these Aslan can be played as player characters, then they are "just humans in rubber suites".

I do not think so. It is quite possible to describe aliens in a way that en-
ables both styles of playing them, the "humans in rubber suits" as well
as "really alien aliens", depending on the willingness and ability of the
player in question. A good example of such descriptions are the Kzinti
in the Ringworld RPG.

Sorry, never looked at the Ringworld RPG so I can't comment on the Kzinti.

But, my point is that if you can describe an alien in a way that can make sense to a human, they are just "humans in a rubber suit". If you can describe an alien's culture as being like Samauri/Romans/fascist/warrior culture/noble warriors/pack mentality/whever, then they are just "humans in a rubber suit". If you can understand their psychology and their society, then they are just "humans in a rubber suit".

Now, show me an alien that does things that don't make sense to us, but still work out correctly. Show me an alien with a societal structure that can't be modelled either directly, or by bits and pieces, of existant or historical human cultures. Show me an alien with a completely different thought process. Show me an alien that is not restricted to a subset of a human's possible actions, but actually has more possibilities. Show me this stuff, and you have finally moved past "humans in rubber suits".

But, the above really isn't easy to do (if it is even possible), because whatever they are, they still have to be relatable to the humans that are trying to play them. And when you do that, you inevitably reduce them to "humans in a rubber suit".

And it isn't like this is really a bad thing. I mean, suppose you do come up with an alien so alien that it can't be related to by humans. What good is it? You can't play it. You can't even interact with it particularly well. In effect is is reduced from being an actual character to nothing more than a random event; an obstacle to be avoided or overcome. If you want to be able to relate to it, then it becomes a "human in a rubber suit'. Which, again, is fine and, indeed, a good thing.

 

[daryen]

Chances are the traditional look of the Aslan will undergo some changes. Though we understand that a lot of people will simply want a rehash of the old Aslan books, that's not what we're going for. Some concepts may be forthcoming.

On that subject, please tell me you did something great with the Glorious Empire. Please tell me you did something totally subversive with them.

When trying to describe and show an alien culture, one of the best ways is to contrast it with something else. The Glorious Empire is a perfect opportunity to do just that, and do it fully within what Aslan are.

Please, please, please don't have wasted the fallen, doomed, yet still Glorious Empire.

 

[walkir]

So, a truly alien lifeform for you would be a member of the hydrogen order of the Uplift Universe and every member of the Oxygen order would be a human in a rubber suit?

That's a bit strict in my book.

 

[rust]

But, my point is that if you can describe an alien in a way that can make sense to a human, they are just "humans in a rubber suit".

If you cannot describe an alien in a way that can make sense to a human,
you cannot describe it at all. No matter how alien the alien may be, one
has to describe it within the framework of the human mind and a human
language - or not at all.

But imagine an alien that has to eat its "mother" to be born, never knows
which "male" has fertilized its "egg" and grows up in a society ruled by
the young members of the species because the adult members lose their
intelligence during their puberty, and then imagine what their society and
their culture might be like, and how they might react to a contact with hu-
mans.

You might still call such an alien a "human in a rubber suit", but it will ha-
ve a lot of personality traits and motivations quite different from those
of a human, and it can be played accordingly with a little imagination and
thought - in a way that no one would mistake it for a "disguised human".

 

[Dave Chase]

...
But, my point is that if you can describe an alien in a way that can make sense to a human, they are just "humans in a rubber suit". If you can describe an alien's culture as being like Samauri/Romans/fascist/warrior culture/noble warriors/pack mentality/whever, then they are just "humans in a rubber suit". If you can understand their psychology and their society, then they are just "humans in a rubber suit".
....

Wow, going to the extreme here over a phrase aren't we.

Here is the difference that I see when I use the term, Human in a rubber suite:
Does the alien act just like a human no matter how it looks. Then it is a human in a rubber suit.

Does the alien have concepts, quirks or culture things based on or off the way they are designed. Or are they just humans in a rubber suit.

Do smart alien insects based race wear cloths? Human in a rubber suit.
Does an every alien race jump up and throw away generations of traditons just to adapt/take what humans think they should, Humans in a rubber suit.
Do aliens layout their equipment, deckplans and battle strategies like humans do, humans in an rubber suit.

And I wonder how many movies and stories you read. There are several goods out their where the aliens don't do just like humans and they do succeed at staying alive.

I understand your issue about making the race playable for humans, but that does not mean that they are exactly like humans wearing a silly suit.

If the term humans in a rubber suite really, really bothers you, then try this as a replacement.

Mongoose (or any game company) please don't make aliens act just like humans. Make them culturely different based on their physical make up, their racial/planetary history and be interesting to have other than just one more human race that looks different on the out side.

And daryen
I do appreciate your concern/issue with the term but please don't in the future attempt to say, what I mean by what I write. Ask, clarify your stance and even refute what I say, but don't go overboard by what I used in words until you give me (or anyone) a chance to attempt to clarify what we said.
And its nice to know that there are still people that believe humans are the dominate species in the galaxy even though we honestly don't know yet.

No cookie cutter aliens for me, please.

Dave Chase

 

[EDG]

I find that "humans in rubber suits" tends to be the same as "easily archetypable" (if that's a word). If you can summarise an alien's dominant behaviour in a sentence, then IMO it's too simplistic and not alien enough. Heck, if an alien is pretty much defined by a dominant behaviour then it's too simplistic and not alien enough.

"honour-based warrior race" definitely fits that description. It could be klingons or aslan or kzinti, but it's still an oversimplified definition.

Humans themselves are far more complicated as a species than any aliens in Traveller. We come in all shapes and sizes, with all sorts of outlooks, and don't really fit any definitions beyond ultimately being driven - at a genetic level - by sex and/or power. And even then, those aren't necessarily the primary goals of some humans.

Aslan or anyone else should be the same. You should get pacifistic klingons, or Aslan who can't be bothered with land or kids or power or whatever. Or K'Kree who aren't psychotic omnivore killers. Or Hivers who aren't curious. Or anything else that bucks the archetype.

 

[daryen]

And daryen
I do appreciate your concern/issue with the term but please don't in the future attempt to say, what I mean by what I write. Ask, clarify your stance and even refute what I say, but don't go overboard by what I used in words until you give me (or anyone) a chance to attempt to clarify what we said.

I never once ascribed my definition to you. And I was also nice enough to not imply that you were not well-read, or that you were uninformed. I simply stated my opinion on the subject of "humans in a rubber suit". Feel free to agree or disagree, but insulting me isn't going to do much good in the discussion.

And its nice to know that there are still people that believe humans are the dominate species in the galaxy even though we honestly don't know yet.

Where, please, did I ever make such a statement? I didn't. Nor, quite frankly did I even imply it.

I never said humans were the dominant species in the galaxy. I simply said that creating aliens that can be culturally defined in human terms and have a range of actions that are a complete subset of humans is a "human in a rubber suit". Wanna impress me with an alien? Show me how alien it is by not restricting its actions.

And, to be perfectly frank, my reaction to "humans in a rubber suit" is because it is a very arrogant term. My point is that it is used to mock or dismiss aliens that one doesn't like by using an ill-defined term that actually applies to just about any alien that can reasonably be used in a game.

You know, kinda like how the term "cookie-cutter" gets thrown around ...

Mongoose (or any game company) please don't make aliens act just like humans. Make them culturely different based on their physical make up, their racial/planetary history and be interesting to have other than just one more human race that looks different on the out side.

As an aside, I agree with this statement. Make the aliens different. I have no problem with that, and would like to see that. Just avoid the archetypal crap that EDG mentions, too, please. (Well, except for the Vargr. The Vargr are supposed to be wolf-men.)

 

[GypsyComet]

Traveller:

High Anticipation = Strong Disappointment

(Years later, and I'm still annoyed at the SJG version of the Zhodani)

 

[daryen]

Let me try to explain my point another way.

But imagine an alien that has to eat its "mother" to be born, never knows which "male" has fertilized its "egg" and grows up in a society ruled by the young members of the species because the adult members lose their intelligence during their puberty, and then imagine what their society and their culture might be like, and how they might react to a contact with humans.

Well, first of all, unless they have a very long maturation process, any species that loses its intelligence at puberty will not be very technologically advanced, if at all. Probably won't be very socially advanced, either. But that is besides the point.

Ignoring that, how about a human society that has been plagued by a biological agent that destroys the intellect over the process of puberty. The now simpleton adults can (and still do) couple, producing pregnancies, but it is up to the older children to raise the resultant babies. Granted the children don't eat their mothers in this scenario, but they certainly don't know who their fathers are, and even if they remember who the mother is, it doesn't matter.

So, with one fairly typical SF-style addition, I just made a human society very similar to your alien one. Humans in rubber suits.

And, again, I don't see this as necessarily negative. I just see the invective of something being "humans in rubber suits" to be pretty much a non-sequitor.

Finally, on another point, while I totally agree with EDG in that in general species should not be completely describable in a single sentence, I do think there is room for such tropes when desired. As I mentioned, the wolf-men (Vargr) at totally cool in Traveller. Likewise, I really don't have a problem with a race of "noble warriors" (whether they be human or otherwise). I think the problem starts when most of the species are one-note wonders and there are multiple "noble warriors" (and Traveller suffers from both of these).

 

[Dave Chase]

And daryen
I do appreciate your concern/issue with the term but please don't in the future attempt to say, what I mean by what I write. Ask, clarify your stance and even refute what I say, but don't go overboard by what I used in words until you give me (or anyone) a chance to attempt to clarify what we said.

I never once ascribed my definition to you. And I was also nice enough to not imply that you were not well-read, or that you were uninformed. I simply stated my opinion on the subject of "humans in a rubber suit". Feel free to agree or disagree, but insulting me isn't going to do much good in the discussion.
...

Well then, I apologize. I did take your point on it as beening pointed at me. If that was not the intend, sorry.
And I was far from attempting or even hinting at being insulting to you.
Making a statement like the above is not even close to being insulting. It merely asked that you give the other a chance to clarify or refute.

But, I still think that you are being a bit too literal in the sense of what humans in a rubber suit means as compared to what others mean.

Mongoose (or any game company) please don't make aliens act just like humans. Make them culturely different based on their physical make up, their racial/planetary history and be interesting to have other than just one more human race that looks different on the out side.

As an aside, I agree with this statement. Make the aliens different. I have no problem with that, and would like to see that. Just avoid the archetypal crap that EDG mentions, too, please. (Well, except for the Vargr. The Vargr are supposed to be wolf-men.)

Your last statement to me makes more sense and gives me a better understanding of what your intent was with the lengthy rote on humans in a rubber suit.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. Your post to me seemed a bit pointed.

Dave Chase

 

[rust]

So, with one fairly typical SF-style addition, I just made a human society very similar to your alien one. Humans in rubber suits.

I think you are stretching the term "humans in rubber suits" a bit much,
but I agree that it is possible to interpret it that way.

In my view, a "human in a rubber suit" would be an alien with common
human personality traits and motivations, an alien that is based upon a
member of an existing or historical human culture and whose actions
can be predicted with a knowledge of that culture, e.g. a "samurai alien"
that acts like a samurai or a "desert culture alien" that acts like an arab.

 

[daryen]

Well then, I apologize. I did take your point on it as beening pointed at me. If that was not the intend, sorry.
...
Sorry about the misunderstanding. Your post to me seemed a bit pointed.

I was not directing my comments at anyone in specific, but rather about the term itself. I also admit that in stating my point (in any topic) that I always face the danger of coming across must more strident than in my intent. For that, I do apologize.

I think you are stretching the term "humans in rubber suits" a bit much, but I agree that it is possible to interpret it that way.

Fair enough.

I do also want to point out that all of us are really asking for the same thing: aliens with depth.

 

[Dave Chase]

Well then, I apologize. I did take your point on it as beening pointed at me. If that was not the intend, sorry.
...
Sorry about the misunderstanding. Your post to me seemed a bit pointed.

I was not directing my comments at anyone in specific, but rather about the term itself. I also admit that in stating my point (in any topic) that I always face the danger of coming across must more strident than in my intent. For that, I do apologize.

I think you are stretching the term "humans in rubber suits" a bit much, but I agree that it is possible to interpret it that way.

Fair enough.

I do also want to point out that all of us are really asking for the same thing: aliens with depth.

100%+ agree. I think we just all have different ways of expressing it.

I don't mind a few alien cultures or a few 'aliens' that were so impressed by the first visiting alien (human, Aslan, etc) that they mimic them, their culture and such.

I just believe that if we are going to have a game system with aliens, that I want them to be aliens with depth as you put.

One of the reasons that I liked B5 was that even though many of the aliens were humans in rubber suits, the Vorlon and Shadows were left as mysterious and unknown how they did what they did. Oh, they had some obvious 'human traits' because we humans will always view others through our own eyes. But to most of the other humans races, we did not understand anything about them until the end.

That's what I would like to see with all the aliens Empires of Traveller.
Give us what we see and know. Give us some of the real and percieved things that we know.
Then give us an extra book or section that tells the way things really are in that alien Empire.
Example: CT Alien Realms attempted to do that, and I really liked that concept.

IMO, it would be neat if each race had a seperate Realms book that goes in depth and have adventures to that race or Empire.
That way, for those that only want the flavor of Traveller, they need only the first book. For those that want more, there are more books, information available. That would also give Mongoose more time to make up some really good background and filler for each of the major races.

Dave Chase

 

[captainjack23]

The main issue I have with aliens in most SF settings is sort of the rubbersuit alien issue -sort of. I really don't have any problem with the need to have a PC playable race have a fair similarity to humans -while playing an alien isn't impossible, it's hard, way hard, and most of us aren't in roleplaying to get academy awards; so, some things that allow a player to act like a human in a rubber suit are okay -the problem is, most of them aren't even really very human-like.

See, a race of rubersuit humans would still have something that most alien races in SF/RPGn (SF or fantasy) lack - variety. Variety in culture, religion, ethics, morals and personality. In most cases, it seems that aliens are even worse cardboard stereotypes than basic human characters. And I say stereotypes instead of archetype, because an archetype can easily have depth, complexity and nuance; stereotypes don't.

I think, in some ways, this whole uniform alien philosophy/culture/ethics thing is a sort of unintentional but easy way to label them as alien: the cultures are exotic, and uniform. Both are very alien to any humans experience. So, voila ! We have alien experience, plus an easy hook to hang a personality on.

So the point ? Have rubbersuit aliens, but make sure there is at least a human in the suit. Most of them have some kind of cardboard cut-out in it...


In some ways Vargrs come close to the ideal of a "bumpy headed human" they are in many ways very similar to humans, but with twists -and still have tremendous variety. Look at it this way - which of the other alien races have more than one language and more than two or three government types ?

 

[captainjack23]

So, to address the topic, Aslan always bugged me -a great idea, but the whole monocluture seemed simply a bad idea.

The whole Aslan warrior ethic, social organization, and political society being uniform throughout the culture, especially one as spread out as the Aslan is really hard to justify. Even in earth pack animals -from Lions to Baboons to Bonobos, and including wolves, dogs and feral cats, there is a tremendous variation in organization and social interaction between various packs -sometimes due to distance, but as often right next to each other. There is a fairly large body of naturalistic observation and theory that suggest that this kind of variance is a big part of how groups maintain cohesion -and if populations get denser, it gets more pronounced.

I can buy a hardwired territorial instinct -to some extent. I can even believe that male Aslan are worse at math and social interaction than females - although I'd suggest that there are strong cultural supports for this, most likely. Howver, I'd suggest that this kind of drive would also push for even closer clan/tribal grouping forces -and would tend to exacerbate intra group differences.

Aslan are clearly intended to be a playable race -they don't need to have samuri cat or TNG klingon stamped on them just to be distinct from humans. They can be alien simply due to them still having very basic instinctual drives expressed in advanced culture. And they can have convergent social institutions, and wildly odd ones due to this.

I'm quite willing to accept a retcon that the whole noble predator schtick is an artifact of the Aslan we have met and constant contact with. I can't help but feel that if aliens contacted us at Roswell, they'd have an RPG with all humans as 1950's cold war USAF black ops research types: socially regimented, rigid, militaristic, paranoid, obsessed with secrecy and technology, hypercapitalist men in black......every damn one of us, except possibly for the expansionistic evil comm'nist hive mind on the other side of the globe that the men in black tell them about.....

 

[alex_greene]

Erm, don't we have a game with that theme already?

 

[Ishmael]

Aliens are living things and thus respond to the same needs as any living thing does; food, reproduction, etc.
For aliens to interact/compete with humans, they'd have to need the same basic goods/territory as humans
To appear sentient ( as opposed to mindless beasts like a swarm of ants ) they have to be able to meaningfully communicate with humans which implies a shared understanding of basic concepts common to both races.
Therefore, any differences in alien societies would show up in game as if the aliens were 'humans' from a different culture.

Given that these alien societies are 'designed' by a human ( ref ) and all members of this society's motivations are determined by a human and that all individuals of an alien society are played by and acted out by a human, then all alien races are "humans in rubber suits". Its not really possible for a fictional alien to be anything else.

Thats not necessarily a bad thing.
It just means that the alien has to be different enough from the player's culture to seem exotic AND the alien culture must be self-consistent. Broad stereotypes make this easier to manage and yet is the least satisfying.

I'm guessing that cultural anthropology would be a good field to look into to make cool aliens
and linguistics ( language gives clues as to what a culture thinks is important and what it thinks is trivial )