Do GURPS and Mongoose Traveller remain in continuity?

[randymcdonald]

What the subject line says.

As far as I can tell as a lurker, there are at least two major producers of new, canonical Traveller material: GURPS, in its no-Dulinor ATU; and Mongoose, with its pre-5FW setting.

Are efforts being made to make sure that they remain in continuity, or are they different alternate Traveller universes? Would material (for instance) from Mongoose's reference Solomani book, which includes extensive detail on the Alpha Crucis sector, be canonical in the GURPS universe?

 

[dragoner]

Generally gurps or Loren-verse, is only canonical to itself.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Lorenverse does follow from the CT/MGT depiction of the 1105 Imperium. Whether it will also find a way to destroy itself and return to the main line before TNE, or continue on its merry way, remains to be seen.

Some of the dateless support material in the GURPS books might be considered Canon, I suspect, while other bits might not. Two examples of the latter:
* T5 suggests that at least part of the picture provided in GT Nobles is no longer correct, but a new "Nobles of the Third Imperium" article/essay has not yet appeared to make it explicit.
* Several of the aliens added in GT are not really appropriate, and some of the characterization of the big races is dubious in spots (such as the K'kree coverage being basically a satire).

It is worth noting, again, that Canon is for Writers. Referees are free to use whatever odd (or slightly odd) elements they like.

 

[Condottiere]

GURPs seems to have genuinely tried to develop the franchise and integrate with their system, and ebven if I didn't really read more than those publications dealing with the military aspect, the enthusiasm that they approached this game and the effort they poured into it shouldn't be under-appreciated.

However, I prefer a slightly more traditional approach to ship design.

 

[darue]

GURPs seems to have genuinely tried to develop the franchise and integrate with their system, and ebven if I didn't really read more than those publications dealing with the military aspect, the enthusiasm that they approached this game and the effort they poured into it shouldn't be under-appreciated.

However, I prefer a slightly more traditional approach to ship design.

The writing is top notch. I recently lent out the GURP traveller core book to a new guy to learn about the setting. It's ~60% setting background info. Haven't really looked at the ship design rules in it tho. I remain mostly-ignorant of the GURPS mechanics.

 

[GypsyComet]

GURPs seems to have genuinely tried to develop the franchise and integrate with their system, and ebven if I didn't really read more than those publications dealing with the military aspect, the enthusiasm that they approached this game and the effort they poured into it shouldn't be under-appreciated.

However, I prefer a slightly more traditional approach to ship design.

The writing is top notch. I recently lent out the GURP traveller core book to a new guy to learn about the setting. It's ~60% setting background info. Haven't really looked at the ship design rules in it tho. I remain mostly-ignorant of the GURPS mechanics.

The main GT rulebook is very nice, yes. My only real problems with it come down to the two design ethics involved. First, it is very much Traveller adapted to GURPS and very little of the other way around. That doesn't bother some people, but it does bother me. Second, it is a GURPS 3e book in every nuance of its layout, from typeface choices to that blasted sidebar. GURPS 3e books are not easy reads even when they are easy reading; the sidebars distract, and the typeface and sidebars together turn what should be compact groups of options into 30 page marathons.

 

[High Orbit Drifter]

The main GT rulebook is very nice, yes. My only real problems with it come down to the two design ethics involved. First, it is very much Traveller adapted to GURPS and very little of the other way around. That doesn't bother some people, but it does bother me. Second, it is a GURPS 3e book in every nuance of its layout, from typeface choices to that blasted sidebar. GURPS 3e books are not easy reads even when they are easy reading; the sidebars distract, and the typeface and sidebars together turn what should be compact groups of options into 30 page marathons.

Funny, I love that set up and wish more game publishers would use it. Better than huge blocks of text. To me details get lost in that type of presentation. Fine for novels, not so fine when you're looking up details during a game. But, as you say, that is a personal taste - I like it, some people don't.

(such as the K'kree coverage being basically a satire)

That is the first time I've seen that. I thought the K'kree were well presented, with details of culture and equipment for what has to be an unlikely alien concept. The only part of that book I didnt' like was the psionic-mushroom race; too Star Warsy for me, not too Travelleresque.


-- edited for cats on the keyboard

 

[Wil Mireu]

Funny, I love that set up and wish more game publishers would use it. Better than huge blocks of text. To me details get lost in that type of presentation. Fine for novels, not so fine when you're looking up details during a game. But, as you say, that is a personal taste - I like it, some people don't.

I liked the 3e layout too.

That is the first time I've seen that. I thought the K'kree were well presented, with details of culture and equipment for what has to be an unlikely alien concept.

Agreed. K'Kree are psychotic, xenophobic, homicidal, vegetarian zealots. People in the OTU should be terrified of them because they have a murderous hate for you because of what you are, not what you think. And then post-TNE they get even more mental by fusing with Virus and nearly destroying human civilisation in Known Space. Most Traveller fans don't take them very seriously, which shows how little they understand them.

The only part of that book I didnt' like was the psionic-mushroom race; too Star Warsy for me, not too Travelleresque.

The other minor races in the AR books were taken from the Spacemaster RPG - David Pulver wrote them for that game's "Aliens and Artifacts" books and I guess figured that they could fit into Traveller. I don't think they're considered part of Traveller canon really.

 

[GypsyComet]

The other minor races in the AR books were taken from the Spacemaster RPG - David Pulver wrote them for that game's "Aliens and Artifacts" books and I guess figured that they could fit into Traveller. I don't think they're considered part of Traveller canon really.

I think I heard that they had been part of his home Traveller game, got converted to Spacemaster, then converted *back* when he was part of the GT writers stable.

 

[GypsyComet]

(such as the K'kree coverage being basically a satire)

That is the first time I've seen that. I thought the K'kree were well presented, with details of culture and equipment for what has to be an unlikely alien concept.

They take their womenfolk on picnics to exterminate the Gnaak, settle social issues like wild stallions, and drive a treaded AFV the size of a three bedroom house. Their write-up has just enough subtle derision built in that you almost have to take it as a Solomani propaganda piece.

 

[Wil Mireu]

They take their womenfolk on picnics to exterminate the Gnaak, settle social issues like wild stallions, and drive a treaded AFV the size of a three bedroom house. Their write-up has just enough subtle derision built in that you almost have to take it as a Solomani propaganda piece.

Or you could be reading something into the text that isn't actually there (though on the face of it, they are such a bizarre race that one almost has to think that their creators are taking the piss. But I don't think there was any intent to make them 'satirical' in GURPS Traveller)

 

[Prime_Evil]

Like any RPG product line, the GURPS version had both high points and low points. However, the average quality was fairly high in my opinion. Even if you don't play GURPS there is some outstanding background material there that you can plunder for ideas....

 

[GypsyComet]

Or you could be reading something into the text that isn't actually there (though on the face of it, they are such a bizarre race that one almost has to think that their creators are taking the piss. But I don't think there was any intent to make them 'satirical' in GURPS Traveller)

Think what you like, but the elements I mentioned are all directly described. There are elements that were added to the K'kree in GT that are quite good, but either a writer or editor of that text was a K'kree BBQ fan. Some elements are just bad, reinforcing the desire of most of the player base to never wander into that corner of the map.

 

[High Orbit Drifter]

Well, I think the low point in 'satirical' Traveller was the Ithklur. One of the Alien's the Rim, I think it was called, races. I don't remember the Hiver description, which was the main part of the book, but I remember the Santa Clause hats of the Ithklur.

IMO the K'kree is great, worth (practically) anyone's attention.

 

[Wil Mireu]

Think what you like, but the elements I mentioned are all directly described. There are elements that were added to the K'kree in GT that are quite good, but either a writer or editor of that text was a K'kree BBQ fan. Some elements are just bad, reinforcing the desire of most of the player base to never wander into that corner of the map.

Until or unless David Pulver says "the K'Kree writeup in GURPS Traveller was satirical" I'll just file your opinion away as just that - an opinion. I don't think it's an opinion based on reality though.

 

[Wil Mireu]

Well, I think the low point in 'satirical' Traveller was the Ithklur. One of the Alien's the Rim, I think it was called, races. I don't remember the Hiver description, which was the main part of the book, but I remember the Santa Clause hats of the Ithklur.

Dave Nilsen has explained the Ithklur. It didn't really work as intended, but I applaud him for trying the idea. You can read the explanation here (and read the whole compilation for lots of very interesting background on Traveller and TNE): http://www.cgi101.com/~lkw/AskDave.txt

(or you can search for "Q: Why did you choose a comedic approach for the Ithklur?", which is near the end).

 

[qstor]

I've heard that GT is canon until 1116 then diverts into its own timeline.

I like the GT books. There is lots of bits of information in them to use what ever rule system you're using for your game.

Mike

 

[dragoner]

Well, I think the low point in 'satirical' Traveller was the Ithklur. One of the Alien's the Rim, I think it was called, races. I don't remember the Hiver description, which was the main part of the book, but I remember the Santa Clause hats of the Ithklur.

Hiver Mechnod Hello in that book was weird as well.

 

[GypsyComet]

A lot of Dave Nilsen's writing wasn't intended to be Encyclopedia Galactica dry and exacting, but instead from a POV inside the setting and not always correct or serious. "Hiver Mechnod Hello" was one of those pieces.

 

[dlpulver]

Think what you like, but the elements I mentioned are all directly described. There are elements that were added to the K'kree in GT that are quite good, but either a writer or editor of that text was a K'kree BBQ fan. Some elements are just bad, reinforcing the desire of most of the player base to never wander into that corner of the map.

Until or unless David Pulver says "the K'Kree writeup in GURPS Traveller was satirical" I'll just file your opinion away as just that - an opinion. I don't think it's an opinion based on reality though.

I had nothing to do with the K'Kree writeup in GURPS Traveller, so my opinion is mostly irrelevant