Different FTL in one game?

[Jak Nazryth]

I am working on a current adventure thread that might be coming to an important point (if the players continue to successfully follow some clues). It's getting to the point where I will have to start designing a ship "for real" as apposed to having a rough idea in my head. I can always change things if it becomes too cumbersome or begins to "break" the universe, but...

The players are chasing down clues to find a long lost experimental ship. It is/was an experiment because it was trying to use Warp drive technology (form the alternate drive portion of the main rules) At this point they have no idea that it's drives are different, but that it was experimenting with some kind of improved fuel technology... which is partially true. So if I ditch the warp idea, my players will be none the wiser.

There are 3 variants in the core rules, but I would like to get some input on the good, and bad, of introduction another way to skin the FTL cat.

BTW... if I do take the plunge into warp technology, my background is that at least one ancient species/culture, all proceeding the rise of humans, used Warp. But the technology was lost and that the "younger" races are still in the jump drive "phase"

I like to think of it as the difference between prop airplanes and jet airplanes. (might not be a good analogy but it's the best I have) My thoughts are that Jump using races will eventually graduate to warp once jump technology hits a roadblock (like max jump 6 for instance) the same way prop engines bumped up against a maximum speed until the development of jet engines.

Ideas and comments?

 

[BP]

What is your objective... i.e. how does the tech feature in your overall storyarc.

Do you want your players to be able to go faster, farther, more randomly ("ok - not that button"), etc. Is the tech going to provide a challenge ("...we're down to the last dilithium wafer, Cap'n!") or an avenue for power, wealth, or intrigue needed for future adventures?

 

[Jame Rowe]

I do like the idea of having warp drive being higher TL than jump drive. I'd just start it off at TL 15 or 16, and if you like TL 15 models could be experimental.

Once upon a time, my Traveller group was still playing, and I ran an adventure for it (taking over for the regular GM) where they were hired to look into a noble's fief that was used for science - specifically teleportation science. Turns out that TL 15 is high enough to figure out how it could be done, but not high enough to actually DO it. What happened for my adventure was that the teleportation worked, but killed everyone and shut down all the electronics at the site because of an unforseen type of energy. (Though remember, I didn't want to introduce something that would upset the universe of the regular GM.)

 

[locarno24]

It certainly should get their attention. If you think Stargate:Universe, the way everyone reacts when they realise they're at FTL in real space...

Ideas and comments?

I like to think of it as the difference between prop airplanes and jet airplanes. (might not be a good analogy but it's the best I have) My thoughts are that Jump using races will eventually graduate to warp once jump technology hits a roadblock (like max jump 6 for instance) the same way prop engines bumped up against a maximum speed until the development of jet engines.

Well, the one comment I can make is that if you're using the 'canon' traveller universe, Jump clearly remains the best (or at least most cost-effective) option because even TL20-odd ancient ships use it. However they can ignore enough of the fundamental rules of jump physics (jumping in inside the upper atmosphere, rendezvousing with another vessel mid-jump, etc) that they clearly could do it another way if they wanted.

Jump isn't necessarily 'better' because warping at 6 parsecs/week is no different to a 6 parsec jump taking a week. As you note, it's the fuel that improves and high end ancient ships have self-regenerating unlimited fuel. However, it does offer other advantages - notably of the 'what is that? let us go and have a look!" nature, and the ability to make multiple shorter 'hops' in a week (2 parsec, 2 parsec, 2 parsec plus an hour or so at each system takes a week for a warp-6 craft).

The big problem, from a player perspective, is that jumping to warp should probably require the same process as jumps - astronavigation (even more important since you're still in real space) and powering up the drive. However, at the point where you ask the party's tech guy to 'make an Engineer (warp engine) check, he will respond "you what now?" since he's never heard of it'.

If there is a pressing need to jump right the hell now (choose from pirates/competitors/natural disasters/structural collapse of moon/whatever) he won't have time to learn. Which means he'll have to rely (heavily) on the automatic systems. With no real idea what the pre-programmed settings are....

...Which could be fun.

For you, obviously.
:mrgreen:

 

[Captain Jonah]

Well Warp drives are fun but will have a "HUGE" impact in a number of ways.

Firstly since you are doing warp number per week a ship with warp 2 covers 1 parsec in 3.5 days, a warp 6 drive covers 1 parsec in little more than a day. Suddenly you become faster than everyone else over shorter distances (those guys in the jump 4 ship still take a week to go 1 parsec, you get there in a few days, hit the target/raid the bank/make the deal/set up the ambush etc before they can get there)

Not using fuel changes the dynamic of ship design and use. The rule book warp uses double power plant fuel, who hoo. So instead of needing to carry 10% of the ship per jump number in fuel you have a few extra Dtons for the power plant. A thousand Dton ship with warp 4 will use 28Dtons of fuel a week, enough for a month will be 112Dtons but you get to save the 400Dtons a jump drive needs. Net result more space for cargo or military systems.

Hey its a warp drive and it works. Tell you what lads and lasses, you sell it to us and we will make you billionaires. No, how about your own planet.
As soon as word gets out that they have something so advanced they will be hounded across the length of known space by agents wanting to buy or steal the drive. Every person they meet is now a threat, want to leave the ship and go groundside when people are offering vast bounties for the drive, every navy or pirate you meet is going to have you on a list of "Obtain at all costs".
Even the nicest most law abiding stellar power is going to bend the rules to grab Warp tech, any nation without it is going to become very second class in terms of interstellar powers. Pirates and bounty hunters will chase your players everywhere trying to grab the billion credit reward for the ship.
You can end up in the middle of multi sided space battles as everyone in the system charges in to beat off the others and claim the wonder drive for themselves.

Of course there is always the "If we cannot have it then no one shall" theme where the players are seen to favour one faction or power and so everyone else is out to destroy them before they upset the balance of power.

Unless there is a factor that prevents everyone else reverse engineering the thing the fact that it exists means it will be copied. It may take tech 16/17/18 to invent but hand built prototypes are going to be doable at tech 15. Ok its twice as expensive as a jump drive, or even three times as expensive. That still doesn’t change the fact that in massively unbalances things if one side has warp and the others do not.

So either everyone gets it, no one gets it or there is something else that limits it rather than simply tech level.

How does it warp space time, Jump drives avoid special relativity by leaving real space entirely and enter another dimension. How does the warp drive work, what special extra bit allows it to ignore relativity. Does it use some form of crystal matrix formed at the heart of a super giant that became a supernova and the energy release and gravity compression forced the molecular structure of the crystals partially into subspace so now when energised the crystals create a field that moves an object or ship partially into subspace. Enough to ignore some of the rules of physics and go FTL anyway.
Where are these crystals, how to find them. If they are only found in one system in the universe that becomes a war zone. Someone like the 3I would drop an entire fleet into that one system to safeguard the mining. Smugglers and illegal miners would make fortunes (or die in the darkness) by running the defences.

Whatever verse you players exist in everyone in power is going to want access to this drive and will offer vast fortunes, blackmail, threaten or kill to obtain it.

Your players may have very exciting lives with the only warp ship in existence. Short but very exciting :shock: :lol:

 

[Reynard]

This sounds like the Wonder Ship we see in fantasy and sci fi stories. It's a one of a kind Gift of the Gods in the hands of mortals or it's a unique 'weird science' discovery never to be duplicated. The players now have responsibility of such great power and also all the troubles it brings.

I'd go the GotG route, an ancient artifact. So old and of such high technology the players will need to be careful how to expose it. There may still be familiar thruster tech for in system movement and it may be possible to hide or redirect attention to the very odd powerplant and drives. Bribery is a bitch. At a higher tech, maybe the ship also has an A.I. and could actually interact with the players. It becomes an NPC.

As a unique weird science artifact, there will be enough familiar in the ship beyond what's need to operate the warp drive that the players will spend less time hiding what they have. Still they need to deal with nosey types.

 

[Vargrz]

Warp is the stuff of Star Trek, and that is fine in Traveller (in my opinion) as long as their ship is not the only one. It could be a rarity of newer technology, but if it is the only one then the potential advantages could become "god-like."

 

[BP]

Not really seeing one ship as anything game changing as a matter of course - in the real world there are all kinds of unique or record breakers (nuclear merchant vessels that don't require the fuel tank-age/refueling of fossil fueled vessels; rocket powered motorcycles and boats; SR-71s; etc., etc.) Of course being limited production (especially one offs), alternate tech generally has other costs that make them less mainstream (construction, maintenance, infrastructure and reliability 'costs', not to mention intellectual property and lack of venture financing for things unproven...).

The ability to go farther/faster/and or with more load for a PC ship doesn't really break anything on a larger scale. As mentioned, they may become targets due to the unique qualities - and certainly gain certain advantages market and combat wise. But these may also come at balancing costs (hard to repair, or even operate - as mentioned in other posts). Or not - it's your 'Verse...

 

[rust]

If a warp drive is the setting's logical next development step
after the jump drive has reached its limits, a warp drive ship
would be the equivalent of an early steam ship in the Age of
Sail - engineers will work on several prototypes with less than
mature technologies, some people and organizations will want
such a ship, others will continue to prefer jump ships (especi-
ally many of those in higher positions, because the new tech-
nology would devalue their skills and experience), and so on.
The first warp ships will be difficult and expensive to operate,
despite all of their advantages, because skilled technicians or
spare parts will be rare. All in all, nothing which could break a
normal Traveller setting.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I have used different FTL methods within the same setting on several occasions.

Typically, I have used some kind of Wormhole/Jumpgate system and combined it with an FTL drive for ships.

Thus, it is a bit like SG-1.

The new Far Avalon setting includes this kind of idea.

 

[Hans Rancke]

I have toyed with the idea of a stardrive that was slower than jump drive, but cheaper. That is, a tramp freighter (PC-owned, of course) might take two weeks to move one parsec, but the expenses would be so much lower that they would be able to charge competitive prices. Also, I'd move as much of the expenses as possible from the ship itself to operating expenses, making it possible for PCs to stay on one world for a few weeks to have an adventure without having the bank seize the ship.

I've never gotten around to doing any of the necessary calculations, though.


Hans

 

[Jak Nazryth]

The idea/reason behind introducing a warp drive into the game is partly because over the last 30+ years Traveller has become a bit stale for me. So much has change since the mid-late 70's in both role playing games, popular culture, and huge advances in science itself that to me Traveller feels a bit dated... like bell bottoms...
But for the most part I want to introduce the idea that ancient civilizations predating "our own", as far as the Traveller game universe is concerned, to the point where even Jump drive appears obsolete. The ship in question is owned by a rogue ship builder who is devoted to uncovering ancient knowledge and technology. This person discovered enough hints from the past that an attempt was made a warp drive. It failed. This lost ship my players are looking for is not meant as a cool new toy for my players to run around known space, but as a signpost on what the ancients were capable of. Because in MTU the ancients in question are not the Dryone's, but the arch enemies of the Dryone's who's entire existence is unknown, until now.
They are returning. Not anytime soon, but they are returning never the less. Quietly...
Last week my players discovered the existence of this race. Soon they will discover the advanced nature of this race.
One other thing. The fuel source is not liquid hydrogen, but hydrogen "slush". Basically it's a way (I took from the T-20 rules) to allow a 5% rule for jump instead of the 10% rule. Special (and expensive) fuel tanks are required, plus additional fuel processors are required to get "the 5% rule" out of hydrogen fuel.
That, or anti-matter is a close runner up. I have not decided yet, but both systems are supported in the basic core rules.

 

[Reynard]

Oh, it's a plot device! Why didn't you say so?! Do continue.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Aha.

There you go then.

Waves hand. Plot device. Waves other hand.

See, it works now :lol:

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Yeah, it's 90% plot device, but I want a proper game mechanic to back up the plot device. 8)

 

[Darzoni]

I'm tinkering with the idea of multiple FTL drives in a setting. It's kind of a major thing, since Jump-6 humans were stuck fighting a civilization that has Warp-4 drives. Sure, Jump-6 is going to outpace Warp-4, but the lowered fuel costs of the Warp-4 ships means that there's a lot more weapons and armor on the Warp-4 ship...

The smart thing to do as a TL-15 civilization when getting punched in the face by a TL-18 civilization is to buy weapons and warp-drives from another TL-18 civilization, clearly. Despite the large markup...

 

[BP]

Yeah, it's 90% plot device, but I want a proper game mechanic to back up the plot device. 8)

Not sure if you are just sharing what you are doing, or seeking help?

Halving the jump fuel requirement - whose number is an arbitrary design choice to begin with - is no big deal. Calling it 'slush' H2 implies perhaps higher density storage - again no big deal, RL not withstanding. RAW - the hydrogen is used for a 'jump bubble' and, presumably, charging jump capacitors (still part of MgT as covered in Black Globe rules). A jump drive that with a slightly more efficient jump bubble (smaller) could easily consume 50% less hydrogen.

Or... maybe the 'missing' hydrogen is obtained (tapped) from some 'other place' during creation of the jump bubble - in such a way that is advantageous to the 'other ancients' (maybe in coming back...). Maybe they need the unwitting 'help' of starship jump drives to make something possible in another dimension/jump space 'universe'...

 

[GypsyComet]

Halving the jump fuel requirement - whose number is an arbitrary design choice to begin with - is no big deal.

And it's even been done before. Usually because of power or thrust mass requirements that would make 10% untenable. 5% + 5% per Jn has been used in two prior editions for those reasons.

Without those reasons, you end up with higher carrying capacities in ships, changing the econ balance and design balance. If you want ship ownership and payoff to be that much easier, then indeed 'no big deal'.

 

[BP]

...
Without those reasons, you end up with higher carrying capacities in ships, changing the econ balance and design balance. If you want ship ownership and payoff to be that much easier, then indeed 'no big deal'.

What says there aren't some other 'balancing factors'? :roll:

The payoff isn't necessarily easier if the drive costs a lot more to begin with, has enormous maintenance fees, or potential operational problems.

Heck - there may even be a reduced carrying capacity (if the J-Drive is significantly larger to reduce its fuel requirements!)

Further, its larger impact on a TU may not even be relevant due to limited availability.

Of course, the OP's premise might be to bring such 'imbalances' into his TU anyway (or at least the 'threat').

 

[GypsyComet]

Those still qualify as "changing the balance". It isn't a bad thing, just a thing that needs to be recognized.