Demos - Crazy overpowered?

[Triggy]

Still ships with 2 turns + turret or side firepower can get you & nearly any decent fighter rains on your parade.
Sure you can outrun the fighter/ship but that means you haven't turned to get back to fire again.
Ships facing the Demos can CBD or IDF the turn it fires the torps as well.

Maybe so (and they're valid tactics) but it doesn't change the point that the Demos is way better than the Vorchan.

 

[Goldritter]

I think, that the Demos is a littlebit too good too.

The Combination is too much.

I think it would be more balanced if it loose the Interceptors.

Only more Defensive Ships (Escorts and Scouts) have Interceptors, but none "Assault" Ship. Which the Demos is.

 

[emperorpenguin]

why do people keep saying "lose the interceptors" :roll:

watch season 5 and you'll see WHY it has them!

 

[Karhedron]

That's my point! Ships are not equal across a PL nor should they be frankly as that leads to everyone having the same fleet that just looks a bit different.

Sorry, I have to disagree here. Ships of the same PL absolutely SHOULD be balanced against each other, otherwise the fleet selection mechanism is meaningless.

Being balanced does not mean being the same. Ships can have many different strengths and weaknesses. Armour, speed, firepower, manouvrability, fighters and special rules can all contribute to a ship's worth in the game. With so many variables you can have almost endless variations while still maintaining a level playing field.

Victory should go to the player who maximises the strengths of his ships while attacking his opponent's weaknesses. There should not be any "no-brainer" choices. Frankly I think the Demos fits into that category at the moment.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The Demos isn't some super-ship that destroys all before it. 6AD of SAP, Precise, Slow-Loading isn't some tactical nuke that can kill any ship. It's a crit-fisher, that's all, and one you can only use half the game. Where it's overpowered is the ion cannon. 10AD vs the basic Vorchan's 8AD, with no apparent reason for this. Lower it to 8AD and it's perfectly fair. Lower it to 6AD to explain the interceptor - we see the Demos firing its dorsal turret to shoot down Drazi missiles in season 5 - and it's more than fair.

End ex.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Karhedron is correct in that ships with the same cost should be balanced. They may be better at different things, but overall one shouldn't be more powerful than the other.
Locutus is correct so far as we shouldn't have ships in tight bands of power level, each band exactly twice as powerful as the last, with no room for any ships in between.
Unfortunately, you're going to have to choose one over the other for as long as ACTA is saddled with the PL system...

 

[Taran]

A better explanation of why points-based systems are still superior, I have yet to hear...

 

[Triggy]

The Demos isn't some super-ship that destroys all before it. 6AD of SAP, Precise, Slow-Loading isn't some tactical nuke that can kill any ship. It's a crit-fisher, that's all, and one you can only use half the game. Where it's overpowered is the ion cannon. 10AD vs the basic Vorchan's 8AD, with no apparent reason for this. Lower it to 8AD and it's perfectly fair. Lower it to 6AD to explain the interceptor - we see the Demos firing its dorsal turret to shoot down Drazi missiles in season 5 - and it's more than fair.

End ex.

Exactly how I feel

It's probably the best ship in the game at the moment (excluding Gaim) but nowhere near as bad as some of the 1st ed stuff.

EP - I don't want it to lose the interceptor, I only point it out to say that without it then it would be less powerful. I agree with most here that it's the ion cannon that needs to go to 6/8 AD.

 

[emperorpenguin]

EP - I don't want it to lose the interceptor, I only point it out to say that without it then it would be less powerful. I agree with most here that it's the ion cannon that needs to go to 6/8 AD.

No I was referring to Goldritter saying the interceptor should go because it doesn't fit its assault role

 

[Humbaba]

Well by my calculations the Demos comes out the second best skirmish level ship (behind our famous Gaim queen) at 431 points (the average of all skirmish ships being 217); the Vorchan, while still very good, doesn't come in until 9th place with 312 points. They fill a similar role for the same race, so it is unfortunate that they have the points gap that they do. The extra range on the Demos' torpedoes is a pretty nice advantage as it, with its excellent speed and manuverability, can give the Demos an extra round of firing without reprisal against shorter ranged opponents. Plus, it is an excellent crit trawler.

-Humbaba

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I don't agree the Demos is the best ship in the skirmish PL bar none. I don't see the torps as that wonderful. Sure, they're precise, but the Centauri have those tasty precise beams on a few ships, so they're not dependant on the Demos and Elutarian's torpedoes. Six precise, SAP dice at skirmish is nice, but they are slow-loading. I'd rather have the four SAP, double damage dice every turn. A couple of extra dice on the ion cannon and an interceptor doesn't make a super-ship, there's plenty at skirmish just as useful as the Demos.

 

[Goldritter]

No I was referring to Goldritter saying the interceptor should go because it doesn't fit its assault role

Sorry the fifth Season I haven´t followed so much as the other four.
(And in the other I can´t remember, that Centauri ships used Interceptors.)

So if the Demos has an Interceptor in the Show, than it should have it in the Game too. Of course.

Then I agree with the 10 AD on the Ion Cannons.
6 or 8 is enough.

 

[bridge26]

Personally I don't think the Demos is busted for all the reasons covered already. Nor do I think it's a no brainer choice between the Vorchan and the Demos. They are different ships and have different roles. There is always going to be one ship that is considered the best for its class, that really doesn't mean it's broken, good god I hate that term, it has plenty of weaknesses, is it fair that they don't have a hull 6 like the Chronos? Is is fair that they only have weapons to the F arc? Really, these arguements are somewhat circuitous and quitefrankly pointless once they have gone past a certain point and been debated ad infinitum. The only resolution to this kind of discussion is the vanilla fleet where everything is the same just the models are different. Revamp it, drop its AD, then what? Another ship takes over as top of the pile then we start on that one?

I Totally agree, the second you start makeing changes to the ship because it has been labeleed as "broken" someone will bring up how another ship is broken because of x y z and so on and so on

 

[Kaizen Zanshin]

Hi Guys,

Figured I'd Chime in for a sec in regards to Close Blast Doors on the Demos and something I noticed.

"Close Blast Doors and Activate Defence Grid!

Crew Quality Check: Automatic

Effect: Securing all bulkheads and bringing online short range defensive systems, the crew prepares to withstand a brutal
attack. If successful, the ship may only fire one weapon system and ships with only one weapon system may not fire at all.
However, for each point of Damage or Crew taken this turn, roll one dice. On a 5 or more, the point is ignored."

Doesn't this mean that if you close the blast doors when they have have fired the Missle last round they can't fire a thing as they only have the one system to fire with - the matter cannon. That might help on "taking them down a notch" - if your looking for it. (BTW: I love the Demos)

 

[bridge26]

Hi Guys,

Figured I'd Chime in for a sec in regards to Close Blast Doors on the Demos and something I noticed.

"Close Blast Doors and Activate Defence Grid!

Crew Quality Check: Automatic

Effect: Securing all bulkheads and bringing online short range defensive systems, the crew prepares to withstand a brutal
attack. If successful, the ship may only fire one weapon system and ships with only one weapon system may not fire at all.
However, for each point of Damage or Crew taken this turn, roll one dice. On a 5 or more, the point is ignored."

Doesn't this mean that if you close the blast doors when they have have fired the Missle last round they can't fire a thing as they only have the one system to fire with - the matter cannon. That might help on "taking them down a notch" - if your looking for it. (BTW: I love the Demos)

I am not sure there, is that rule saying that ships with only one weapon cannot fire at all. If so then the demos can fire as it has two weapons, that it cannot currently use one is not covered by that rule.

Or

is the rule saying that ships with only one weapon system Availible to fire cannot fire.

Thoughts?

P.S. i may have worded that terribly, if so sorry

 

[No. 1 Bear]

I not sure about that. if it is to do with avaliable weapons it makes sense, sort of, but on the other hand it doesn't. I never actually looked at it like that either so theres one to get you brain going.

 

[Triggy]

There's no reference to available weapons systems (otherwise weapons not in range/not in arc wouldn't count either). This means reloading weapons count when working out how many weapons systems a ship has and therefore the Demos can CBD and shoot just its ion cannon.

 

[bridge26]

There's no reference to available weapons systems (otherwise weapons not in range/not in arc wouldn't count either). This means reloading weapons count when working out how many weapons systems a ship has and therefore the Demos can CBD and shoot just its ion cannon.

That makes sense thanks triggy.

However if something was needed to reduce the power of that spec order then it could be changed.

From


Effect: Securing all bulkheads and bringing online short range defensive systems, the crew prepares to withstand a brutal
attack. If successful, the ship may only fire one weapon system and ships with only one weapon system may not fire at all.

To
Effect: Securing all bulkheads and bringing online short range defensive systems, the crew prepares to withstand a brutal
attack. If successful, the ship may only fire one availible weapon system and ships with only one weapon system may not fire at all.
Availible weapon system counting as one that is in range and not currently being reloaded.


After re-reading that however it is to much of nerf and would make that spec order almost pointless. Ignore it. but i thought id put it up for people anyway.

 

[Kaizen Zanshin]

There's no reference to available weapons systems (otherwise weapons not in range/not in arc wouldn't count either). This means reloading weapons count when working out how many weapons systems a ship has and therefore the Demos can CBD and shoot just its ion cannon.

Hmmm... There's no reference to it not being just availible weapons either. I think it would count. If there were weapons not in range that would count towards the one and you could still fire the one weapon in range though.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

I would like to see Mongoose Playtesters or Moderators chime in for a ruling though.

 

[Lordpappanqui]

Well by my calculations the Demos comes out the second best skirmish level ship (behind our famous Gaim queen) at 431 points (the average of all skirmish ships being 217); the Vorchan, while still very good, doesn't come in until 9th place with 312 points. They fill a similar role for the same race, so it is unfortunate that they have the points gap that they do. The extra range on the Demos' torpedoes is a pretty nice advantage as it, with its excellent speed and manuverability, can give the Demos an extra round of firing without reprisal against shorter ranged opponents. Plus, it is an excellent crit trawler.

-Humbaba

Humbaba,
As a sidenote, can you please fill me in on your points system?
Am quite interested, to say the least.
Thanks!