Defensive fire vs Plasma / Drones

[sanguisaevum]

HI again!

OK, i have read, and re-read the two rules about using phaser defensive fire vs drones and defensive fire vs plasma...

As the two have their own section... it would imply that there is at least a little difference in their application... indeed, the plasma section indicates you use the "same rules as defensive fire vs drones with the following exceptions"

Thing is... i can't for the life in me figure out what the difference is meant to be... i must be reading it wrong, because to me it just reads like a slightly different way to say the same thing... :?

How does phaser defensive fire vs drones, differ from phaser defensive fire vs plasma?

 

[Greg Smith]

As the two have their own section... it would imply that there is at least a little difference in their application... indeed, the plasma section indicates you use the "same rules as defensive fire vs drones with the following exceptions"

You are absolutely right, there is no difference. No exceptions at all.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Ninja'd by Greg while I was doing something else :roll:

Really it doesn't. I'll read that bit tonight but I cannot say I even noticed it.

Allocate Phasers to defensive fire, say how many you are firing against the incoming, roll to hit. Reduce the incoming by that many Attack Dice.

With Drones you will get lots of small waves, with Plasma's you get a few big waves.

For example you have 6 Phasers on defensive fire of which five will hit and one misses. First wave of 4 Drones is destroyed, second wave of 4 one is destroyed, three hit (Use Your Tractors Dammit :lol: ). Third wave of Drones all hit.

Plasmas incoming two S and two F, 12 AD in total. You fire Phasers, hit with 5 so remove 5AD from the plasmas, it doesn't matter which as they are all simultaneous. So 7AD of plasma's hits you.

The differences come with Drones, ADDs, other Drones and Tractors can all be used on Drones but not plasma’s.

With Phasers however, a hit with a defensive Phaser destroys 1 AD of incoming, either a whole Drone or a bit of a Plasma. The game effect is the same.

 

[sanguisaevum]

I was initially wondering if it mattered at all that plasma often comes in separate weapon systems on a single ship, and that drones all come in as one wave. As far as I can see, I don't think there are any ships with multiple drone weapon systems are there? all ships with drones have just one drone entry with a given number of attack dice

eg you might see....

Plasma F
Plasma F
Plasma S

on one ship, but you will never see...

Drone 2
Drone 1
Drone 1

Instead, all drones on a ship are combined to one weapon system (Drone 4, in this case)

Now I know that you declare all weapons fire and targets before rolling any dice so is THIS where the difference lies?

Take an example ship with the following available for defence...
Ph1 (4ad)
Ph1 (4ad)

Against a ship with drones 4, all its drones come at the same time, as they are from one "weapon system" so you pick your defending weapons and roll to knock drone AD out of space. In this case, the defender must either choose to fire both systems in defence and roll 8 dice total, (and risk overkill) or fire only one system, and risk missing with some shots and letting drones through.

However

Against a ship with multiple plasma launchers (F, F, S, S), each shot is actually a separate system entry on the ship sheet, so the attacker declares his intent to fire all plasma at the defender, but do the rules tell you to resolve all the plasma as one wave at the same time? (indeed, does the game tell you to resolve all fire from several same type-phaser systems together, or is it just that that is more convenient for the players to roll all ad of Ph1, together rather than seperate rolls for each ph1 system?)

If the the plasma is coming in this order and is a separate weapon system...

Plasma F (2ad)
Plasma F (2ad)
Plasma S (4ad)
Plasma S (4ad)

The defender has only two 4ad systems to defend against 4 individual systems, and the first two plasma are only 2ad each... if he uses a 4ad phaser on the leading F torps, he risks wasted overkill, or he could let the fs through and take the damage and use his 4ad phasers against bigger torps where there is no risk of overkill.


Also... on a related note...

Does all defensive fire have to be declared before dice are rolled?

EG a ship has the following available for defence...

Ph1 (2 ad)
Ph3 (1ad)
Drone 1
Tractor 1

Against a 4ad drone wave, when does he have to declare what is defending, and in what order does it happen?

could he try with ph3 first, then if he missies, try with ph1, then try with drones, then finally tractor, or does he have to declare some or all of this first before dice are rolled and risk overkill

also... can tractors be used against multiple drone waves in the same turn?


oh my... so confused about this particular aspect of the game!

 

[storeylf]

but you will never see...

Drone 2
Drone 1
Drone 1

Orion ships, they have possible multi drone systems.

 

[tneva82]

but you will never see...

Drone 2
Drone 1
Drone 1

Orion ships, they have possible multi drone systems.

Speaking of which people complain about kzinzi drone spam? What they think about orion ship with 8AD worth of drones?-) Kzinzi get 4 on similar point cost ship...

 

[Captain Jonah]

In terms of incoming it doesn’t matter if its 6 plasma Fs or 2 S and 2 Fs. Both are 12AD of plasma in a single attack. You are defending against 12AD, how the plasmas separate doesn’t matter since at longer ranges you just have a smaller pool of AD that hits.

With Phasers a weapon system (one line of the stat sheet) must be either Offensive OR defensive.

So your ship with:

FH 4AD
SH 2AD
PH 2AD
Turret 2AD

Must declare which lines are defensive. Once the choice is made ALL offensive weapons fire at once and are done with. Defensive weapons can be fired at any time.

So incoming Drones. The FH and SH Phasers are declared as defensive. Two Drones in the first wave so one Phaser from each line. This leaves 3AD in the FH and 1AD in the SH to be used for defensive fire but since the weapons have been declared as defensive even if no other Drones are fired at the ship the unfired Phasers CANNOT be used against an enemy ship.

This is always funny if you can run a Klink C8 out of other weapons and make him fire that huge 10AD phaser battery on his nose at one Drone :lol: :wink:

In your example with Phaser-1 4AD FH and Phaser-1 4AD T the ship is faced with 4 Drone from the front. You can fire all 4AD from the FH, roll to hit and if one misses then the Drone hits you. You could fire all 4AD FH and 1AD from the turret to ensure all 4 Drones are lost leaving you with 3AD in the turret for other Drones.

Since an AD is an AD and all Drones or all plasmas are exactly the same its quicker to just treat each attack as a pile of incoming dice that need to be stopped. If doesn’t matter that the Romulan or Gorn just fired 4 weapon systems at you or the Kzinti fired one weapon system. From the rules point of view what is important is 4AD of incoming Drones or 12AD of incoming Flaming plasma death.

For plasmas only Phasers work, declare the Phasers you are firing, roll them.

For Drones you declare what you are firing and in what order. So it could be the Drone first as it’s an auto kill. Then Phasers. The Tractors are the last thing used since they really are stopping the drone the second before it hits.

The order in which you use things can be important when you have differing chances of success. For example using Drones first since they are auto kills and hold back the more risky Phaser shots for what is left.

Tractors are like any other weapon; each can be used once per turn.

For example a ship has three tractors, each will stop a Drone on 1 4+. So one drone leaks through your defensive fire. You can use two tractors against it giving you two 4+ rolls. This uses those two tractors even if the first one works, both have been used.

You then have one tractor left for when the next four Drones arrive :twisted:

 

[Captain Jonah]

but you will never see...

Drone 2
Drone 1
Drone 1

Orion ships, they have possible multi drone systems.

Speaking of which people complain about kzinzi drone spam? What they think about orion ship with 8AD worth of drones?-) Kzinzi get 4 on similar point cost ship...

The optional weapon mounts were dropped to 1AD I thought so the cruiser only has 6AD of Drones :roll:

What do people say about Orion fleets with more drones than a Kzinti Frigate Horde. Its a family forum, no swearing allowed :wink: :lol:

 

[sanguisaevum]

Brilliant Explination

Awesome.

Thanks for that

 

[storeylf]

In terms of incoming it doesn’t matter if its 6 plasma Fs or 2 S and 2 Fs. Both are 12AD of plasma in a single attack. You are defending against 12AD, how the plasmas separate doesn’t matter since at longer ranges you just have a smaller pool of AD that hits.

Really? would you care to point at the official clarification saying you must lump your weapon lines into a single attack.

Attacking as lines or as a single lump can have noticeable affects.

 

[scoutdad]

It does indeed work the same way.
I think that little bit may be a holdover from earlier versions where things were a bit different and some tracking was required.

In that version, it was important to detemine how fire at plasma was allocated as they could remain on the board across a turn break if fired from far enough away. Then you had to whittle them down, they lost AD by moving, etc.
It was all even more confusing than the current RAW. :shock:

Not really... It was straight-forward compared to SFB, but much more complicated than the current rules.

It still matters how the individual lines are resolved, but still much simpler than the early draft version!!!

 

[Captain Jonah]

In terms of incoming it doesn’t matter if its 6 plasma Fs or 2 S and 2 Fs. Both are 12AD of plasma in a single attack. You are defending against 12AD, how the plasmas separate doesn’t matter since at longer ranges you just have a smaller pool of AD that hits.

Really? would you care to point at the official clarification saying you must lump your weapon lines into a single attack.

Attacking as lines or as a single lump can have noticeable affects.

The only time when it makes any odds is up against the front shield of a Klingon that will go down half way through the attack.

Mr Klingon has 10 points left on his front end and 12AD of plasmas incoming so I attack with the S first then an F which should drop the shield leaving the second F and S to do full damage.

Against anyone not a Klingon front shield it makes no difference. He Phasers down 6 AD so I have 6Ad left, it doesn’t matter of that is 2 full strength Fs and two Ss on 1AD each, it is 6dice of devastating on his shield or hull.

We have been through this many times. If people want to min max by rolling every single weapon separately they can do, if people want to speed up the game by lumping all the plasmas into a single 12AD and rolling that they can do. Aside from the Klink shield there is no need beyond tiny fractional accounting to do anything else.

 

[storeylf]

The only time when it makes any odds is up against the front shield of a Klingon that will go down half way through the attack.

Against anyone not a Klingon front shield it makes no difference.

This is just plain wrong. The empire is irrelevant.

If the attack can go through a shield it can cause a crit, a crit can affect your ability to do further defensive fire (weapon hits, or dice modifiers). A crit or even a cripple result can affect your ability to stealth further hits (lose a trait) or ADD further drones (lose the ADD trait) o use tractors (lose tractor trait hit) .

If we are talking non seeking weapons a crit can drop your shields before further attacks.

In the case of drones, it may even be that against orions and their multi drone systems you get multi ADD uses (haven't checked the ADD rule, but if it is per 'attack' that is pretty important).

if people want to speed up the game by lumping all the plasmas into a single 12AD and rolling that they can do.

Agreed, but you are presenting your version of 'attack' as though it is the way the rule is written in the first place, and when challenged saying it makes no difference when it does.

 

[Da Boss]

The only time when it makes any odds is up against the front shield of a Klingon that will go down half way through the attack.

Against anyone not a Klingon front shield it makes no difference.

This is just plain wrong. The empire is irrelevant.

If the attack can go through a shield it can cause a crit, a crit can affect your ability to do further defensive fire (weapon hits, or dice modifiers). A crit or even a cripple result can affect your ability to stealth further hits (lose a trait) or ADD further drones (lose the ADD trait) o use tractors (lose tractor trait hit) .

If we are talking non seeking weapons a crit can drop your shields before further attacks.

In the case of drones, it may even be that against orions and their multi drone systems you get multi ADD uses (haven't checked the ADD rule, but if it is per 'attack' that is pretty important).

yep thats all correct.......

 

[Red-24]

Really? would you care to point at the official clarification saying you must lump your weapon lines into a single attack.

As far as I understand, under the Advanced rules (and let's face it, who's not using the Advanced Rules) you don't have to.

On page 18, Splitting Fire, it specifies that each weapons system other than Plasma Torpedoes, can split its fire, allocating different Attack Dice to different targets in range and arc. It goes on to say it also applies to weapons used in defensive fire.

The way we play it, I have separate "check boxes" for each AD of each weapon on my sheets. You don't have to pre-allocate anything at the start of the Attack phase.

When incoming drones or plasma attack a ship, the player can choose to use some amount of Attack Dice of Phasers in the proper arc to defend. They check off the boxes to show they did.

When that ship gets to Attack, it may use any remaining AD of Phasers to attack, but the player must decided if he is keeping some AD in reserve for potential drones/plasma still to come this turn. Again, they check off what they have used, so that it is clear what is remaining for defense.

Differences in Defensive Fire between Drones and Plasma

Although the original poster was asking about Phaser defensive fire, for those just joining, I think it's important to point out that ships have up to four options for defending against Drones, but only one against Plasma.

Anti-Drone Defenses vs. Drones - Wipe out all drones, but potentially lose some Anti-Drone.
Phasers vs. Drones - Roll and apply Accurate bonus.
Drones vs. Drones - Each Drone wipes out one incoming Drone.
Tractor Beam vs. Drones - CQC 8 for each beam. Must be used last.

With the exception of Anti-Drone defenses, each can only be used once per turn per Phaser AD, Drone AD, or Tractor beam.

Phasers vs. Plasma Torpedo - Only option.

There has been a lot said about how powerful Drones are, and how hard they are to defend against. So far, as I learn to play the game, Drones add the most in terms of decision making; when to use Phasers defensively, when to save Drones for Defensive Fire, or if Feds, when to switch Drones to Anti-Drone Defense mode.

I have 0 experience with Plasma yet, but I'll play Romulans in my next game to get a feel.

 

[storeylf]

When incoming drones or plasma attack a ship, the player can choose to use some amount of Attack Dice of Phasers in the proper arc to defend. They check off the boxes to show they did.

When that ship gets to Attack, it may use any remaining AD of Phasers to attack, but the player must decided if he is keeping some AD in reserve for potential drones/plasma still to come this turn. Again, they check off what they have used, so that it is clear what is remaining for defense.

I believe this has been clarified to be wrong (or at least as I'm understanding what you are saying), I asked about it myself at one point.

You can split your fire attacking, you can split your fire defending, but you can't split your fire between attacking and defending. You can use a weapon line in defense and another weapon line in attack, but you can't use 1 line in attack and defense.

 

[scoutdad]

Matthew has indeed clarified it.
You can split a single weapon lines fire in EITHER defensive fire or offensive fire, but not in both.

And if you use it in defensive firem then all AD in that line are used ina single "defensive fire pulse", not spread out across many of them, so the example of using 10AD of phasers at a single drone is accurate.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

Making drone waves even more effective :evil:

 

[Red-24]

Matthew has indeed clarified it.
You can split a single weapon lines fire in EITHER defensive fire or offensive fire, but not in both.

Damn! No matter how many hours I spend on these forums each day, I still end up missing important info like that.

Thanks.