Death of the Dilgar

[frobisher]

in 'Soul Hunter'. If he met Delenn when he became commander of B5, that would make his stint almost three years.

Close enough. Though officially, Sinclair ran it longer as Sheriden was a deserter after his first 18 months in the position

You think there is a good chance that the Shadows were a precipitating factor in the Dilgar War, but you dislike the made-up continuity in the RPG books? Don't you see a contradiction there?

Not at all. One could fit the facts and the other really doesn't.

I've no problem with made up continuity - most of the RPG and gaming material is just that and some of it is really neat, but those two books in particular have shockingly bad made up continuity, that only really "fits" in a "Fight Club" kinda way (no one talks about it...).

 

[Greg Smith]

He was still running it even if he was a rebel/seccessionist/
deserter/traitor. :lol:

I agree some of the stuff in the Minbari book doesn't ring true. Minbari killing a Vorlon with a bomb? The details of the last Shadow war don't quite agree with canon, IIRC.

I do think the Shadow-souled Minbari could be a good enemy in a PC campaign (so long as the players haven't read the books). Make the PCs think the Minbari are behind the bad stuff: raiding, piracy, warmongering etc; only to have them find out about the Shadow-souled (who the real Minbari are keeping a big secret).

 

[frobisher]

I do think the Shadow-souled Minbari could be a good enemy in a PC campaign (so long as the players haven't read the books). Make the PCs think the Minbari are behind the bad stuff: raiding, piracy, warmongering etc; only to have them find out about the Shadow-souled (who the real Minbari are keeping a big secret).

True - thinking about it, the biggest problem I have with the Shadow Souled is that they are a different skin colour - "Shadow Black" compared to normal Minbari, which is pure D&D That detail more than any thing else got my goat. Emphasis should have been on the Soul I think not he containing vessel

 

[lastbesthope]

In the ISA time period he would have been relocated as Lochley took over and at that point it would be worth noting where he moved to.

Not necessarily, Lochley might have gotten Ivanova's quarters.

I'd need to have a really good look at the DVDs to be sure though.

LBH

 

[Greg Smith]

True - thinking about it, the biggest problem I have with the Shadow Souled is that they are a different skin colour - "Shadow Black" compared to normal Minbari, which is pure D&D That detail more than any thing else got my goat. Emphasis should have been on the Soul I think not he containing vessel

Yes. No other followers of the Shadows turned black. Except maybe Morden after he was nearly nuked. :lol:

 

[Shadow Queen]

True - thinking about it, the biggest problem I have with the Shadow Souled is that they are a different skin colour - "Shadow Black" compared to normal Minbari, which is pure D&D That detail more than any thing else got my goat. Emphasis should have been on the Soul I think not he containing vessel

Yes. No other followers of the Shadows turned black. Except maybe Morden after he was nearly nuked. :lol:

i havent seen morden turn black tho he was pulling "Dead" skin off

 

[ShadowScout]

A few things...

First the Nova question.
It is actually rather implausible that Omelos went nova judging from the in-game information - after all, the system is still in the jumpgate network, and that means the jumpgate and beacon have survived the stallar event that wiped out rhe Dilgar. What's more, the GG states the planet Omelos-III is also still there, just scorched clean of life.
All that means it can't have been a nova - a nova would have vaporized the whole system, planets and jumpgate included. So it must have been another stallar event - most likely a sequence of unusually strong solar flares that killed Omelos-III.

Then the "whodunnit" question:
It may of course be possible that someone did destabilize Omelos... but IMO it would be a example of "bad fluff". Let's face it, not everything is connected to the Shadow-Vorlon conflict, B5 is not a childrens show, shit happens here without the "usual badguys" being responsible.

And now the "why didn't they leave" question:
IMO that was best covered by the AoG history. The Dilgar tried to leave their planet - Dilgar style. That was what the whole invasion was all about - they went looking for a replacement world, but found none within their territory; they had a history of violence and conflict, and thus didn't even consider trying to put themselves in a position of weakness relocating to parts unknown without a powerful military to protect them, so they decided to engage in a war of aggression to conquer the resources they would need to create the military powerful enough to cover their relocation, and gain a replacement world with the same campaign. Only in the end they overreached, made overconfident by their early victories over the league races - they opened one front too many trying for the Markab, and got hit by the fresh fleets of Earthforce when their own lines were overstretched. Then they slowly got driven back to Omelos as more and more bottled-up league forces were relieved by the allied fleet and finally the Dilgars fleet was decisively defeated and the Dilgar imperium crushed. I doubt the allied forces tried to invade Omelos-III itself (they'd have taken too many losses unless they resorted to the same tactics the Dilgar used, something that would have been political suicide for any EA president and anathema to the Abbai), so they decided to make Omelos-III the Dilgars prison, not knowing that thus they would doom the race.

As for Shadows and their activities... While the main story staes they hibernated until woken up by the Icarus mission, many indications of shadow activity took place before that date. However... even while the Shadows were inactive they had someone "minding the store" - both the Drakh and "The Eye" were looking out for the Shadows interests. Still, I doubt that something major like the destabilization of a sun would have been done without the Shadows themselves supervising the process... and anyway, see above on that matter.

Sheriden took over Sinclair's quarters, and Sinclair actually ran the Station for a longer period of time than Sheriden (just not screen time...).

Actually not.
- Remember, B5 was completed in mid-to-late 2256, went oficcially online in 2257 and lost Sinclair in late 2258/early 2259. Means a bit more then two, maybe two and a half years of B5 time.
- Sheridan started with 2259, and ran B5 until late 2261 when he became IA president and Lochley took over on B5 - means three years of Sheridan, one more then Sinclair had.
- Of courser, Lochley beats them both hands down as she'd still in command of B5 in "crusade time", 2267 - with no relief in sight; meaning at least six years (and counting) of running B5, more then both "J.S." had combined!

Close enough. Though officially, Sinclair ran it longer as Sheriden was a deserter after his first 18 months in the position

Well... that is kinda cheesy as argument...
Of course, when we're talking cheesy arguments, one could always latch onto the formulation "ran the station" and argue that while someone else may have held official command, the one running the Station was actually Ivanova (and not only because she "...is God" :wink: )

And the Dark Elf - sorry Shadow Souled Minbari thing is inexcusable.

YES IT IS!!! Finally someone else noticed. I mean, I like Drow as much as anyone, but filing off the serial numbers and allpying the pattern to the Minbari (who already were suffering from "Elf-comparison syndrome") was Really inexcusable IMO.

I would have liked an "dissident clan" of Minbari that left their society because they just could not bear the changes Valen brought... but the two things that make the SS impossible to accept for me were the Shadow link (see above, I hate it when one bad guy is responsible for Everything - bad things get done without the one mastermind behind it too; especially in a "shades of grey" universe like B5...), and the black skin (Drow!).
Facit: Dark Knives good, Shadow Souled bad.

I agree some of the stuff in the Minbari book doesn't ring true. Minbari killing a Vorlon with a bomb?

Actually if it were that, I could have accepted it; after all, a big enough nuke can kill vorlons. But was it that? Nooo... they HAD to make it so that the thing exploding was a vorlon starship, sent to show the Minbari how to gain spaceflight (a weak excuse - by now we have enough indications that vorlon tech would have been of little use to non-vorlons), and it blew up when "...it's engines ignited". Now, had it been destroyed by a nuke hidden under the landing pad (this is what I would have chosen for a story like that) - OK, but from the fluff it seems that either a minbari smuggled in a bomb powerful enough to blow up a vorlon ship (unlikely) or managed to sabotage the vorlon engines to blow up on liftoff (impossible).

Much worse of course was the "Minbari take an ancient vorlon defence shield and within hours "McGyver" it to shoot down a Vorlon starbase" thing... (though of course anyone who knows me will remember I always start screaming and ranting whenever younger races develop a sudden understanding of first one tech without spending a few millenia of research on it)

The details of the last Shadow war don't quite agree with canon, IIRC.

True. Delenn said a few things about that on eon the show - how the B5-era shadow war followed the same patern as the Valens-era one. Thus there ought to have been a period of fostering strife before open attacks, followed by seemingly senseless and random hit-and-run strikes against anyone, and not the "attacks on colony worlds" (taking long enough for reinforcements to arrive) described there. Finally, Valen did not have the Minbari win alone agaist the Shadows - we know from the (decreed canon by JMS) comics that it was an alliance of races, most notably the Minbari and Tak'cha that fought the Shadows. (However, here we get another BG clash - the show says Shadows and Vorlons do NOT strike at each other directly, while the Factbook says the Vorlons "supported the MInbari directly" and the comics even show Vorlon vessels attacking Shadow ships... of course, the best way to fix that is to assume -as I do- that the Shadows had races fighting for them back then, and while the Vorlons never before "Interludes & Examinations" fought the Shadows directly in their game, there was nothing to stop them from attacking the Shadows allies just as the Shadows attacked the Vorlons allies...)

And just as bad is the "The Minbari enjoyed a period of relative peace for a thousand years after Valen..."
If that were the case, the Minbari could never have reached the reputation they had with the Centauri (see "In the Beginning, and read the matching book for Londo's thoughts in the "meeting" scene). AoG was smart (or had good advice) when they included the Garmak story (rivals of the early centauri who considered the Minbari "paper tigers" and tried to conquer them, only to be wiped out in return with the Centauri watching from the sidelines and forming a firm policy not to piss off the Minbari). Also, with that much peace it would have been extremely likely that the Minbari would have "forgotten how to bite".

...sigh...

Well, maybe some day in the future we'll get an "2nd Edition Minbari Factbook" with improved/corrected history and more visual goodies...
For now I will consider the supplement an collection of options subject to GM approal and exercise GM privilege in my campaigns to ignore the SS and adjust the history...

 

[thedarkelf007]

I agree with ShadowScout there..

I'm sure that in a 2nd edition version of the books, they will fix up some of the non cannon fluf to make it closer to cannon again...

Though one thing I would note is, that I would accept the Minbari were able to use the Vorlon tech, because the vorlons (in there wisdom at the time) made the tech so races like the minbari could learn to use it against the shadows...

Then the minbari turned the tech onto the vorlons, and the vorlons, well... they figured out how bad their origional idea was and re-engineered any tech going near one of the younger races to be almost impossible for them to use...

It is just another case of the mistakes the vorlons were capable of, not thinking their servants would turn on them.

I thought the shadow souled minbari strange on the first read, and have not gone back to look at them.

Back to the dilgar ;-)

While the shadows were also domant during that war, that does not mean that the Drakh or other servants (will we see them sometime?) were not involved. Such as convincing the Dilgar that war was the only way to save their people, sabotaging any negotiation... would be an interesting story arc if someone wanted to take it. The Drakh trying to create their own servant race while their masters slept, but tested the race first, found them lacking, them left them to die while they found another...

 

[frobisher]

A few things...

First the Nova question.
It is actually rather implausible that Omelos went nova judging from the in-game information - after all, the system is still in the jumpgate network, and that means the jumpgate and beacon have survived the stallar event that wiped out rhe Dilgar. What's more, the GG states the planet Omelos-III is also still there, just scorched clean of life.
All that means it can't have been a nova - a nova would have vaporized the whole system, planets and jumpgate included. So it must have been another stallar event - most likely a sequence of unusually strong solar flares that killed Omelos-III.

You're thinking of a Supernova event which is a not exactly the same thing as a Nova event. In the former the star blows it self apart after collapsing inwards, in the later the star "merely" sloughs off matter into its surroundings; The normal cause is when a a star ecretes matter from a nearby companion star and gets to the point whereby the gravitational forces don't balance the outward solar wind pressure. Slightly less violent, but still nasty.

Then the "whodunnit" question:
It may of course be possible that someone did destabilize Omelos... but IMO it would be a example of "bad fluff". Let's face it, not everything is connected to the Shadow-Vorlon conflict, B5 is not a childrens show, **** happens here without the "usual badguys" being responsible.

However, it was an "unexpected" Nova (not Supernova... ) and the evolved humans manage to do much the same to Sol 1 million years hence. Most Nova events are entirely predicatable - we have observational data for this now, and if Omelos was known to be a Nova star the biggest suprise would be that there was life there in the first place... There's a smoking gun, and some suspects, but that's it...

 

[combatdroid113]

I have only one thing to mention here (as everyone seems expert) If Deathwalker escaped surley some of her comand escaped. Then if some of them made it through then more and more would have seen the inevitable and made for safer harbors. I realise that the backlash of being Dilgar after the conflict would have destroyed any chance for civilisation, but it leaves oppurtunities for some to escape... and lets face it the Dilgar are used to living in dangerous environments and also received assistance during the war from both the Narn and the Centauri (usually to nobble old enemies) but you see my point there would be a few free.

 

[frobisher]

I'd expect there to be more Dilgar out there based on Jha'Dur's survival - though the Windswords only sheltered her as far as Delenn found out.

It wouldn't take much to recruit them to the Shadow cause, but I suspect that the Shadows would have very little to do with them as they were a "failed" race. Ain't "evolution" a bitch?

Any Dilgar out there would be keeping a very low profile.

 

[Shadow Queen]

I think it was eather a shadow or Dilgar virus that took out the Markeb

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

Actually, that's a valid point. Just like the Markab, ALL the Dilgar can't be dead, right? Deathwalker should have been an old woman, but it's not out of the question that others survived up to 2258+. A canny old Dilgar survivor might make an interesting early-game adversary for a group of PCs. Though I suppose it's not necessary to dig that deep just to find an adversary...

I personally doubt that the death of the Markab was anything other than natural. As has been said before, **** happens in the B5 universe. I think it'd take away from the dramatic impact for it to be an outside source. (Not to mention that Drafa had shown up well before the Dilgar problem and not the magic number of 1000 years ago, so it likely wasn't the Shadows either.)

 

[lastbesthope]

Deathwalker should have been an old woman,

But remember what she was working on......

LBH

 

[chulbert]

We pretty much know from the show and other quasi-canon material that the Shadows were inactive until the 2250s.

You have to account for size and scope. The Vorlons and Shadows, both ancient races with galactic influence, probably have very loose definitions of inactive. The shadows were "laying low" but they weren't hibernating, and from our perspective even "laying low" leaves a lot of room for major events.

Which is not to say I think the Shadows destroyed the Dilgar sun - I don't - but not because I think they were sleeping for centuries. It is fun to speculate, though. Perhaps the Dilgar attacked some Shadow interests and were destroyed by a servant race. Or perhaps the Shadows gave the Dilgar some technology that they used too frivilously and drew unwanted attention so the Shadows had to destroy them to hide their influence.

 

[thedarkelf007]

With the thought that a large group of dilgar got away...

The Red armoured aliens who we never see could be dilgar if someone wanted to go down that path. I know S&P has a different direction for them, but EA only found them in space not on the groud, and they could have taken their new tech from another race they conquered to help with their disguise.

It would explain why no one see's them...

All information about them are simply guess work anyway as they were never explained in the show.

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

Oh, I do remember what she was working on. My point was that Sinclair said she _should_ be an old woman, and not "She can't be a Dilgar at all, she's too young". Meaning that it's technically possible for an older Dilgar to still be alive. I know full well why she herself wasn't an old woman.

I personally think that there are a few scattered Dilgar out there, but no organized force. I also think it'd be tough to justify Shadow involvment in the Dilgar thing, given the hibernation. I think it's more likely that the Dilgar just got screwed, and justly so, if Deathwalker's any indication of the species. The most likely reason they got wasted was the combination of the blockade and pride over pragmatism. But that's just my take, obviously. There are way too many unknowns, which is one reason I love the B5 universe as a game setting.

To me, the most likely "current" status of the Dilgar species is similar to Dureena (sp?) on Crusade: a few pissed off individuals trying to carve out a place for themselves. I can easily see a raider captain or mercenary commander, or even a consultant to one of the more morally flexible governments (Earth or the Narn, maybe late-timeline Drazi, depending on the timeframe). I can also see a side-quest for my group, once the Bounty Hunter book is out and I can assign a credit value to a minor war criminal...

 

[frobisher]

Oh, I do remember what she was working on. My point was that Sinclair said she _should_ be an old woman, and not "She can't be a Dilgar at all, she's too young". Meaning that it's technically possible for an older Dilgar to still be alive

There was no denying that she was Dilgar though - which was odd in itself - the erronous information was her aparent age. This doesn't mean that Sinclair had any particular knowledge of the Dilgar life cycle, just that she should have been older.

But given the Dilgar war was "only" 30 years previously it's not that much of a leap...

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

You know, I was taking it for granted that the Dilgar live an average human lifespan. I really shouldn't do that. And yeah, despite very few people being able to place her race right away, there was no denying it. But it wasn't too long in the past, as you say, so...possible. Not likely though. Or rather, given any population of sufficient size, it is likely that SOME survived somewhere. It's not likely they will ever be heard from again.

I wish we knew more about the Dilgar though. Deathwalker's personality might just have been atypical, or an exageration of racial traits. But if the whole species has a habit of violence, cruelty, and a desire to leave a monument, it wouldn't be a big stretch to have a few of them flip out every now and then and go down in a blaze of glory. Unlikely in the timeline of the show itself, though, if for no other reason than they'd already have gotten themselves blown up by then.

Care to engage in speculation about Dilgar racial attitudes? (I...might be bored and have insomnia, so I apologize if I'm off on a tangent...)

 

[ShadowScout]

You're thinking of a Supernova event which is a not exactly the same thing as a Nova event. In the former the star blows it self apart after collapsing inwards, in the later the star "merely" sloughs off matter into its surroundings; The normal cause is when a a star ecretes matter from a nearby companion star and gets to the point whereby the gravitational forces don't balance the outward solar wind pressure. Slightly less violent, but still nasty.

Let's test our understanding...

"Nova" - the usual death of a big sun, instead of the cycle of normal (sol-sized) stars which can be expected to grow into a red giant, then a cepheide-type, then collapse into a white dwarf; a bigger sun (twice to three times Sol) collapses hard enough to blow up, blasting it's outer mantle into space (which thus vaporize all inner planets and all but possibly the densest cores of outer palanets at least), leaving behind a neutron star or small black hole. Can also be caused by several other things, from real life (your companion stars would fit in here, though this event still causes the upper atmosphere of the dwarf to explode - not merely a series of flares, but a big bright blast) and sf imagination (antimatter induction to stellar core, stargates dropped intot he sun, that sort of thing)

"Supernova" - same thing with realyl big stars (well over 3 times sol mass - exact margins are only estimations at this time), this time the explosion is so violent that it will create a nebular over the next few million years and possibly seed new stars. Theorized to always leave behind a black hole, and possibly even capable of sending out enough matter to destabilize nearby stars...

At least that is how my last girlfriend (almost finished her study of astro-physics) explained it to me.
Of course... maybe the names are used differently in english and german - that could be possible (like "billion" - in english a billion means 1.000 millions, in german that number would be a "milliarde" while a "billion" would be 1.000.000 millions...).

I'd expect there to be more Dilgar out there based on Jha'Dur's survival - though the Windswords only sheltered her as far as Delenn found out.

I'd expect the same. And we do have that module in "Into the Crucible"... as well as several people with ideas about a possible "Return of the Dilgar", most spawned by the alternate outcome of the "Battle of Omelos" scenario back in B5W...

It wouldn't take much to recruit them to the Shadow cause, but I suspect that the Shadows would have very little to do with them as they were a "failed" race. Ain't "evolution" a bitch?

I don't think the Shadows would think that way. After all, "weak races die, strong races get even stronger" - so, if the Dilgar had managed not to die, they would have to be assumed to have grown in strength.
One more point: Did loosing the Minbari war make the humans a "failed race" in the eyes of the Shadows? (and the humns lost that war, no matter what happened at the battle of the line) No it didn't - because they survived.

Of course... all this is working from the premise that the Dilgar as a race survived to be around for shady recruitment. If they did, they could get "associated". If they didn't survive, they were weak. Every GM can decide what happened in his universe...

Any Dilgar out there would be keeping a very low profile.

Yup.
Remember "Deathwalker"? Anyone showing a dilgar face if gonna have a Drazi hunting party show up real soon - with the rest of the hotheads from various league races not far behind.

I think it was eather a shadow or Dilgar virus that took out the Markeb

Possibly... but like the "destabilization of Omelos", bad form. Shit happend without some conspiracy being behind it.
OtoH... remember that the Markab were among those warning of "a great darkness, an ancient enemy" or such? And remember what it got the Narn? It might just be that the Shadows felt the need to silence another witness... by means that would not be traced to them, and thus revitalized an ancient Markab plague. Again, any GM can decide for himself how much conspiracy he wants in his B5 universe.

Actually, that's a valid point. Just like the Markab, ALL the Dilgar can't be dead, right? Deathwalker should have been an old woman, but it's not out of the question that others survived up to 2258+. A canny old Dilgar survivor might make an interesting early-game adversary for a group of PCs. Though I suppose it's not necessary to dig that deep just to find an adversary...

Sure. But read "Requiem for the Dilgar" in "Into the Crucible" for a nice take on dilgar survivors. Other possibilities apply, from Dilgar hidden in some top secret EA facility to small colonies of Dilgar trying to get by without suffering the vengence for the sins of their fathers...

But remember what she was working on......

BtW... anyone remembers the shape of the patterns on Franklins computer monitor when he was analyzing Jha'Dur's serum? Points to a dark and disturbing possibility...

Perhaps the Dilgar attacked some Shadow interests and were destroyed by a servant race.

Unlikely - the Shadows would not allow a servant race to mess with evolution this way - not without their approval.

Or perhaps the Shadows gave the Dilgar some technology that they used too frivilously and drew unwanted attention so the Shadows had to destroy them to hide their influence.

Again unlikely - at this time the Shadows were inactive and not giving out new tech. While it could be speculated on how inactive "inactivge" really means with the Eye in operation and the Drakh standing in at Z'ha'dum, it certainly means no really major stuff like that going on - after all, the Shadows only started working among the races in 2257 or so...

The Red armoured aliens who we never see could be dilgar if someone wanted to go down that path.

Nope. Dilgar were oxygen-breathers, and would have made red explosions. Nice try thogh. :wink:

I personally think that there are a few scattered Dilgar out there, but no organized force.

Everyone for himself on that one. I have a different surprise for the players in my campaign (if we actually manage to get there with those lazy chumps)

I wish we knew more about the Dilgar though. Deathwalker's personality might just have been atypical, or an exageration of racial traits. But if the whole species has a habit of violence, cruelty, and a desire to leave a monument, it wouldn't be a big stretch to have a few of them flip out every now and then and go down in a blaze of glory.

Violence - certainly.
Cruelty - probably.
Desire to leave Monuments... I think that was more of a personal quirk.

And all the "blaze of glory" types probably got their wish during the last few months of the Dilgar war.

Some of the others might still be around, somehere... it all depends on the GM...