Death of the Dilgar

[CharlieMonster]

Rewatching Deathwalker, a bloody good episode, I was left with one question, why the hell did none of them actually just get off the planet? I grant you I have a fairly limited grasp of astrophysics, but stars do actually take quite some time to blow up, surely somebody must have noticed their sun was looking a bit peaky?

 

[Mongoose Gar]

There's something *very* screwy about stars in the B5 universe. Sol's not going to go nova in a million years, after all. My personal theory is that whatever causes Sol to blow up also hit Omelos - some left-over first one weapon or something.

If it's an unnatural explosion, then there might have been much of a warning.

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

I seem to recall something JMS said somewhere (most likely I read it off Lurker's Guide) that while Sol doesn't go nova NATURALLY in that time frame, it is quite possible for it to go nova for some other reason.

Did a moment's digging on Lurker's Guide, here are the quotes from JMS: "My personal nit is that JMS has the sun going nova in only a million years. This seems several orders of magnitude too soon for me."

"Actually, the computer voice specifies that it is continuing to note atypical solar emissions...atypical meaning something unusual is going on." - JMS

"And what if you, say, interfered substantially with the mass of the sun by, say, causing a series of jump points to open up *inside* the sun across several days?" - JMS

"You'd also substantially decrease the mass of Sol, which as I understand it, would result in the sun going nova." - JMS


So it's entirely possible someone pissed at the Dilgar sacrificed a few ships to nuke their sun. In other words, the Dilgar might not have known it was coming, nor had time to flee the system. Or maybe the League was blockading the Dilgar in their home system and no one got out alive. Or, based on Ms. Deathwalker, maybe they're sore losers and prefered to die than to scatter and live on the fringes of the galaxy.

I can come up with reasons for it, but I'll admit that it always struck me as a little strange too.

 

[lastbesthope]

On the nova timeframe issue, it is possible that current human understanding of solar physics is way off you know :lol:

LBH

 

[Mage Ash]

From what I actually understand they were pushed back into their home system and world and blockaded on it. If that was the case than they could not leave when they discovered the imbalance in their star.

Plus, look at it this way. The Dilgar are a race that instead of asking for help from the other races declared war on them. If they had brought it to the other races attention than they would probably have gotten help to colonize other worlds. But no, they took the warpath cause they considered themselves superior to all other races. Once they determined their sun was going to go nova they probably tried to fix it themselves and refused to tell others.

 

[frobisher]

I'd put good money on the event having been triggered by external interference, probably by the Shadows as a spur to the Dilgar.

"Very promising race, very much into survival of the fittest, time to make them go out and knock the anthills over..."

Though it could be a natural event. The other races wouldn't have necessarily noticed it as they would not have the centuries of direct observation of the star that the Dilgar did. The last thing on their mind would have been astrophysics when blockading the Dilgar in, until it was stunningly obvious.

 

[Greg Smith]

Except the shadows were dormant at the time.

 

[frobisher]

Except the shadows were dormant at the time.

I somehow actually doubt that...

 

[Greg Smith]

We pretty much know from the show and other quasi-canon material that the Shadows were inactive until the 2250s.

Why should the Shadows be responsible for the Dilgar war? They weren't responsible for The Earth/Minbari War or The First World War. They aren't responsible for every war in B5's history.

 

[frobisher]

We pretty much know from the show and other quasi-canon material that the Shadows were inactive until the 2250s.

The information we had came from the Vorlons though, hence I'd doubt it would actually be the truth.

We also have some quasi-canonical information that contradicts that (I'm thinking of a prticular frame in the Sinclair-Garibaldi back story at the Psi Corps facility on Mars in the comic strip...).

Why should the Shadows be responsible for the Dilgar war? They weren't responsible for The Earth/Minbari War or The First World War. They aren't responsible for every war in B5's history.

In many ways they were responsible for the Earth Minbari war though - The Grey Council were only where they were because they were off to Zha'Ha'Dum to check up on the Shadows

 

[thedarkelf007]

I'm not sure if this is fac tor not, but I thought the Dilgar War started because they were looking for a new homeworld as their sun was about to go nova...

just that they lost, were forced back to their system in time to be there when it did go.

This might have been a surprise to the rest of the galaxy, as there are lots of stars, and I'm sure they were not watching this one with interest for the last century or so as the dilgar were...

And as far as the dilgar being caught by surprise, they might not have know when it was going, but I'm sure they had a very good idea it was soon... does not mean they were slightly out, and intended to be out of the system at the time.

 

[Greg Smith]

We pretty much know from the show and other quasi-canon material that the Shadows were inactive until the 2250s.

The information we had came from the Vorlons though, hence I'd doubt it would actually be the truth.

Is anything the Vorlons said ever shown to be a lie?

We also have some quasi-canonical information that contradicts that (I'm thinking of a prticular frame in the Sinclair-Garibaldi back story at the Psi Corps facility on Mars in the comic strip...).

That's still only 2253.

In many ways they were responsible for the Earth Minbari war though - The Grey Council were only where they were because they were off to Zha'Ha'Dum to check up on the Shadows

They were only the cause in a small indirect way. Compared to the actions of Jankowski, The Grey Council and Delenn, their part was negligable. In fact it was only the possibility of their return that was a trigger for events and it wasn't their responsibility at all.

In fact, if there was any possibility that the Shadows were active circa 2230, do you not think the Vorlons would have been pushing the Grey Council to rearm before the Dilgar war, instead of in 2247?

 

[frobisher]

Is anything the Vorlons said ever shown to be a lie?

Nothing the Vorlons themselves said was ever a lie (not clear, but never a lie), they had minions (Delenn) to "lie" for them (ditto the Shadows). Anna Sheriden wasn't dead - Delenn was kind of embarassed that she'd been led to tell John that she was because she everything Kosh had led her to believe indicated she would be... Shadows "never miss"... Yeah, right. There is a hint of untruth to most statements made on behalf of the Vorlons about the Shadows.

That's still only 2253.

But crucially before the event where it is claimed that the Shadows were woken up (as relayed by Delenn...)

In fact, if there was any possibility that the Shadows were active circa 2230, do you not think the Vorlons would have been pushing the Grey Council to rearm before the Dilgar war, instead of in 2247?

2244 actually... But even then, no. It was a "small" conflict - not the main event. The Dilgar were a lone race, with no support, and at best the conflict could have been seen as "testing the waters".

If you look at the outcome of the war, the League of Non Aligned worlds started to gel, as a result of Human leadership. This played more to the Vorlons than the Shadows and presumably identified Humanity as a catalyst race that needed to be removed from the next Shadow War, which the Shadows pretty much did.

The other thing to remember is that the Vorlons were working to a timetable as laid down by the time travelling Valen. They just waited for the cue points before doing anything. The Dilgar War they knew would be won without their intervention (whatever its cause) because Sinclair would have told them about the conflict his father served in. It could of course be that they finished off Omelos because they knew it had to go nova at that time, and as such the timeline that produced Sinclair/Valen had to be preserved. The only things they could be certain of, where what Valen/Sinclair told them of which gave them which included

a) A timetable for the Earth Minbari War (events of which should not be tinkered with)
b) A start time for the next Shadow War
c) Knowledge of a war in which they had no apparent intervention

There's more obviously, including that information Sinclair had been given on Minbari history as Ranger One.

 

[Greg Smith]

Is anything the Vorlons said ever shown to be a lie?

Nothing the Vorlons themselves said was ever a lie (not clear, but never a lie), they had minions (Delenn) to "lie" for them (ditto the Shadows). Anna Sheriden wasn't dead - Delenn was kind of embarassed that she'd been led to tell John that she was because she everything Kosh had led her to believe indicated she would be... Shadows "never miss"... Yeah, right. There is a hint of untruth to most statements made on behalf of the Vorlons about the Shadows.

That's still only 2253.

But crucially before the event where it is claimed that the Shadows were woken up (as relayed by Delenn...)

Okay. So the Vorlons do tell the truth "from a certain point of view." (ie lie).

In fact, if there was any possibility that the Shadows were active circa 2230, do you not think the Vorlons would have been pushing the Grey Council to rearm before the Dilgar war, instead of in 2247?

2244 actually... But even then, no. It was a "small" conflict - not the main event. The Dilgar were a lone race, with no support, and at best the conflict could have been seen as "testing the waters".

If you look at the outcome of the war, the League of Non Aligned worlds started to gel, as a result of Human leadership. This played more to the Vorlons than the Shadows and presumably identified Humanity as a catalyst race that needed to be removed from the next Shadow War, which the Shadows pretty much did.

Actually the Dilgar war can be used to prove either races' point. The Shadows can say that conflict makes race's better. The Vorlons can say only through cooperation and alliances will destruction be stopped.

They could equally have identified Humanity as a catalyst by reading a history book. Or asking Morden.

The other thing to remember is that the Vorlons were working to a timetable as laid down by the time travelling Valen. They just waited for the cue points before doing anything. The Dilgar War they knew would be won without their intervention (whatever its cause) because Sinclair would have told them about the conflict his father served in.

But Sheridan wouldn't have know there was no Shadow or Vorlon intervention. Only that it was not apparent. In fact, if the Vorlons make the assumptions that you have, surely they would be bound to intervene.

It could of course be that they finished off Omelos because they knew it had to go nova at that time, and as such the timeline that produced Sinclair/Valen had to be preserved.

The Vorlons will lie, manipulate and genetically modify to achieve their ends but won't use fore-knowledge?

The only things they could be certain of, where what Valen/Sinclair told them of which gave them which included

a) A timetable for the Earth Minbari War (events of which should not be tinkered with)

But they did tinker with it. They told Delenn to act to stop the destruction of humanity "The truth points to itself."

b) A start time for the next Shadow War
c) Knowledge of a war in which they had no apparent intervention

There's more obviously, including that information Sinclair had been given on Minbari history as Ranger One.

The Dilgar were an agressive, xenophobic species. They didn't need the Shadows to tip them into a war. It would probably have happened anyway, whether or not Omelos' sun was going to go nova.

 

[frobisher]

Actually the Dilgar war can be used to prove either races' point. The Shadows can say that conflict makes race's better. The Vorlons can say only through cooperation and alliances will destruction be stopped.

But to the Shadow point of view, the conflict didn't weed out enough evolutionary inferior races. The EA in fact saved more than a couple from extinction, in fact the near extinction of the Alacan was what spurred them into action in the first place. But the Shadows are all about knocking over anthills and seeing what survives.

They could equally have identified Humanity as a catalyst by reading a history book. Or asking Morden.

Er, of course. But quite frankly, even if the Shadows themselves were not responsible for the War (remember I said "could" not "did") they'd have been keeping tabs on it. Just as the Vorlons would have...

I'm not saying that the whole point of the Dilgar War was to identify Humanity as a catalyst for Vorlon plans, but it was an inescapable observation coming out the other end of it.

The Shadows don't just get up grumpy every 1000 years or so and have a rampage and then go back to sleep... They probably time their wars around how long it takes to germinate and grow the replacement ships they need, but it is an easier sell for the Vorlons to describe them as "sleeping".

But Sheridan wouldn't have know there was no Shadow or Vorlon intervention. Only that it was not apparent.

Though Sheriden wouldn't have been relevant

In fact, if the Vorlons make the assumptions that you have, surely they would be bound to intervene.

Only to preserve what they knew had happened. The last thing they would want to do is cause Sinclair to not not follow the path he did.

The Vorlons will lie, manipulate and genetically modify to achieve their ends but won't use fore-knowledge?

Erm, they patently did but from the point of view of trying to preserve the order of events they know will be happening and instituting the construction of the Great Machine...

But they did tinker with it. They told Delenn to act to stop the destruction of humanity "The truth points to itself."

Erm, no. That was how they always knew it had happened... Kosh could have outright told Delenn what she needed to know, but said only exactly enough. jms was quoted on this as saying the Vorlons were paranoid about keeping things happening as they did before, and were afraid of making it too easy, because of the possible ramifications.

The Dilgar were an agressive, xenophobic species. They didn't need the Shadows to tip them into a war. It would probably have happened anyway, whether or not Omelos' sun was going to go nova.

They don't need the Shadows to make them do that sure, but the fact that they knew the sun was going nova put a certain ferocity and zeal into the war.

The Dilgar are a perfect example of the Shadow philosphy. If ever there was a lab experiment on a grand scale, there's your candidate.

 

[Shadow Queen]

Except the shadows were dormant at the time.

in my ranger book it said that there was a shadow ship watching the battle of the line

 

[frobisher]

Except the shadows were dormant at the time.

in my ranger book it said that there was a shadow ship watching the battle of the line

The Ranger book says many things... It's mostly poo though

Seriously, along with the Minbari Fact Book, it's one of the poorest supplements that Mongoose allowed out.

 

[Shadow Queen]

the guide to the station keeps refering to sinclair and dont show the starkillers quarters. or Sheraden untill the ISA

 

[frobisher]

the guide to the station keeps refering to sinclair and dont show the starkillers quarters. or Sheraden untill the ISA

Sheriden took over Sinclair's quarters, and Sinclair actually ran the Station for a longer period of time than Sheriden (just not screen time...).

In the ISA time period he would have been relocated as Lochley took over and at that point it would be worth noting where he moved to.

But at worst those are typographic errors - the content of the Minbari and Rangers books are just about beyond redemption, they really are. The sheer quantity of shoehorned, made up continuity in them is shocking. And the Dark Elf - sorry Shadow Souled Minbari thing is inexcusable.

 

[Greg Smith]

Sheriden took over Sinclair's quarters, and Sinclair actually ran the Station for a longer period of time than Sheriden (just not screen time...).

Did he? We know Sheridan ran it for 3 years (2259-2261 inclusive). I don't think there is anything concrete to say when Sinclair started. The only thing we know is that he says he has known Delenn 'for almost two years, in 'Soul Hunter'. If he met Delenn when he became commander of B5, that would make his stint almost three years.

But at worst those are typographic errors - the content of the Minbari and Rangers books are just about beyond redemption, they really are. The sheer quantity of shoehorned, made up continuity in them is shocking. And the Dark Elf - sorry Shadow Souled Minbari thing is inexcusable.

You think there is a good chance that the Shadows were a precipitating factor in the Dilgar War, but you dislike the made-up continuity in the RPG books? Don't you see a contradiction there?