Daring To Change: Innovation In The Third Imperium

[phavoc]

Going back to the original post, the idea of having a tech that allows you to become a techno mage already exists. They are called Ancients and their tech enabled them to essentially be technical magicians. Smashing world's and stars was quite doable by them and mostly just a dream for the Imperium.

If you look chronologically at humans clawing their way up the tech tree you already do see the equivalent of a railroad to the stars, spreading tech and humanity (and other races) through the stars.

One can easily argue both sides of this. For CT, 6G was the technical limit of the drives (and the die...). Game play was limited to charts, so certain things were chosen for playability. The later versions still share tables, but there are also more formulas and also more competition and influences.

It's easy enough to layer in additional things into your own gaming setting. I'm definitely an advocate to not let yourself or your fun be limited by what somebody else says. However, if you want it to be "official", well, you might be in for a world of frustration. There are a number of ways you can share, from public posts to publishing under the OGL license to creating your own universe and rules.

Not everybody can be SG-1, but that's why there are more than one team, hence the numbering schema.

 

[Epicenter]

Any time someone came up and said "What if someone invents, say, a wormhole drive?" or "Hey, did you know that this Warp Drive thing allows one to travel in real space at speeds of X parsecs per hour?" and followed it up with "Wouldn't it be neat if ...?" there were the inevitable shoutdowns. "No, because MWM, pbuh, said so!" or "What about war? What about trade?" or the old standby, "But it wouldn't be the Third Imperium any more! It would all fall down and go boom!"

I admit I'm a little curious what triggered you to make your post :mrgreen: .

As for the post itself: We know. We all know we can do whatever we want in IMTU. The discussions are about what could be done in the Traveller Universe without fundamentally changing it. Of course, what qualifies "fundamentally changing" it is subjective. However, sticking to an OTU (be it MWM's or Mongoose's) gives everyone a basis to start from to begin discussions so we don't have to preface all of our comments on here with, "In my game where everyone uses lightsabers and flies around in warp starships and there's no Imperium but the Galactic Alliance." So it serves as a kind of as a kind of limit - it's a game played on the forums: How much can you change the TU and still have it remain the TU "in spirit"?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

How much can you change the TU and still have it remain the TU "in spirit"?

For me the essence of the 3I setting is slow communication and fairly slow travel.

That means that any large centralised power is far away, so most power and society is local. If you are on an adventure you are alone, you cannot call for help or backup, you have to handle the situation yourselves with the resources at hand.


To a lesser degree I see the OTU as signified by fairly low TL (e.g. slug throwers instead of blasters), fairly limited economical resources (e.g. starships are mostly small and cramped), and somewhat hard sci-fi (apart from a few specified "magical" technologies).

 

[Reynard]

The original Star Trek was like that, distances were huge and travel and communications took a long time. The captain of a starship had to be able to make lots of decisions because you often heard them say getting an answer from command could take days or weeks. Ports of call were often mentioned as a place to travel to after the episode ended because it was going to be a while. A lot of that 5 year voyage was just getting from place to place on their own.

The later series and movies changed a lot of that. The audience couldn't wait so subspace communications and warp drive became increasingly faster until the second Abrams movie had ships warping from point A to point B instantneously, essentially at the speed of scriptwriting. Now everything was in your backyard. You left Earth Starfleet spacedock and travelled any distance no matter how far away by the next scene before the crew finished breakfast. It speeds up the stories but was it really necessary? Did they lose some of the flavor that made the vastness of space and frontiers trivial?

Traveller has warp drive alternate. Getting from here to there is far more flexible and access to systems is based on the amount of fuel carried. The big thing is no second guessing travel while tracking ship movements become exceedingly difficult. Add in any sort of FTL communication and the universe really only need ships to haul stuff around a big, safe backyard.

 

[Sigtrygg]

My first ever Traveller game was run by an old friend of mine.

We teleported from world to world for the 'dungeon of the week'.

Those were the days before the 3I became synonymous with Traveller - which I maintain is a mistake.

The 3I is a setting, you can use any rule system you like to run the adventures.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

My first ever Traveller game was run by an old friend of mine.

We teleported from world to world for the 'dungeon of the week'.

Those were the days before the 3I became synonymous with Traveller - which I maintain is a mistake.

The 3I is a setting, you can use any rule system you like to run the adventures.

That's what I try to say. With some people though, if its Traveller, it must be the 3I setting. I wonder why it can't be like Dungeons & Dragons, it has no specific setting, it has several official settings, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Kingdoms of Kalimar, and there are plenty of player generated settings. Traveller is more generic that the Star Wars Role Playing Game or instance. lot of people don't care about the 3I setting when they play Traveller, I mean it has a system for rolling up random worlds and placing them on a map, what more do you need than that?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Traveller has warp drive alternate.

Traveller does, the 3I setting does not. And perhaps more importantly CT does not, and CT formed the basic idea of what Traveller is for many people.

The 3I is a setting, you can use any rule system you like to run the adventures.

That's what I try to say. With some people though, if its Traveller, it must be the 3I setting.

Of course we can have several settings, especially as probably no-one plays in the official 3I setting, more or less everyone modifies it to their own taste.

Mongoose is even publishing a few alternative settings. The 3I is just the most popular and most well-developed. And it is rather well developed with a few decades of published material.

I think that when most people say "Traveller" they mean the 3I setting or something like it. After all the rule system has changed significantly over the years, but the basics of the 3I remains. Alternate settings are considered separate games, such as 2300AD, even if the basic rules are the same.

D&D is centred on mechanics such as classes and d20s, but Traveller is centred on basic assumptions of the setting such as the jump drive and no FTL communication. So: Remove the classes and it is no longer D&D; Remove the jump drive and it is no longer Traveller.

That is why many people like me will say it is no longer Traveller if you want to include light-sabres or warp drives.

That does not mean that I have any opinion whatsoever about how you should play your game.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You can run a Traveller game, that uses every trope of the Traveller rules, and not once touch on the 3I. You can even use an alternative rule system and stick to Traveller tropes and end up with a game that feels more like Traveller than some iterations of Traveller.

I used the Aftermath rules for years as my rules of choice, and part of that was an Aftermath in space campaign that started as an adaptation of the Space Master setting but after a few weeks we were 'playing Traveller' - the group was going from world to world, trading and doing patron missions to make ends meet. It felt like Traveller despite being in a different setting as used a different set of rules.

GDW didn't even use the Traveller rules to make the 3I - trade lanes became x-boat routes and then the rules for trade lanes were removed, jump torpedoes were an option and then they were used because they were not in the setting. Meanwhile ships that could not be built according to the rules as written became part of the setting - the Annic Nova and the Gazelle.

As I said, Traveller becoming synonymous with the Third Imperium was the big mistake.

IMHO Mongoose should have moved the setting forward in time rather than re-image the 1105 era.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

I note that the Forgotten Realms setting is not frozen in time. If anything it has changed too much! I think Mongoose ought to produce a New Era setting, I think that would be interesting. Most D&D setting have a great civilization which collapsed and the modern era is a sort of dark ages, the New Era comes closest to that with the collapse of the Imperium. I thought the 4th Imperium came too soon however.

 

[alex_greene]

I would like to point out that the 3I does have a metaplot.

It's got the Fifth Frontier War, the Empress Wave, the assassination of Strephon, Rebellion, Hard Times and the Virus storyline.

And for the Virus storyline, there has to be an adventure called Signal GK, in which the Travellers discover that absurd Planet of the Sentient Flying Silicon Chips. Virus cannot even begin until the majority of vessels are fitted with those sentient silicon chips, which means little sentient computers everywhere.

And if that is not a complete sea change, I don't know what is.

 

[Condottiere]

If I understand the development of Dungeons and Dragons correctly, each new default setting corresponded with each major edition, not to mention all the niche ones that took some fantasy trope and enlarged on it.

Each new Traveller edition seems to try to correct the errors of the last one, that's why GURPS seemed a reset, rather than like the Forgotten Realms, where they let the timeline move on.

 

[Reynard]

"And perhaps more importantly CT does not, and CT formed the basic idea of what Traveller is for many people."

A lot of people today know little to nothing about Classic Traveller except possible our references. Traveller today is Mongoose and T5 which have crossovering. Mongoose continues with 3I. It becomes a bit of confusion when people refer back to the old first edition when discussios are supposed to be about the current rule and setting set. I thought we were referring to MgT in this thread then someone says that's not how Classic works. Classic was inspiration for the newest Traveller so let grandpa rock on the porch.

Yes, I thouroughly know that warp drive is an alterate propulsion system as I did state alternate. I was referring to the fact Traveller already has ways to alter the system and what such an alteration would do to the established campaign world.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I would like to point out that the 3I does have a metaplot.

It's got the Fifth Frontier War, the Empress Wave, the assassination of Strephon, Rebellion, Hard Times and the Virus storyline.

And for the Virus storyline, there has to be an adventure called Signal GK, in which the Travellers discover that absurd Planet of the Sentient Flying Silicon Chips. Virus cannot even begin until the majority of vessels are fitted with those sentient silicon chips, which means little sentient computers everywhere.

And if that is not a complete sea change, I don't know what is.

Not quite true anymore. The sea change has been moved back in Imperial history.

In MWM's novel wafer technology (detailed in T5) is used to record the entire memory and personality of a person in order to make the Agent wafers. This was done in IY 336. This can be used to take over the body of anyone fitted with a wafer interface jack - which are also used for temporarily leaning skills.

T5 mentions that the personalities can by run on computers as well as downloaded into people - if a computer can run a copy of a human intelligence...

The true evil of virus isn't the computer code that was written to disrupt any Imperial computer system (in truth we do not know what it would have done if it had been completed, it was an experimental version), it is the enslavement and lobotomization of a sentient being in every ship fitted with a deyo transponder.

IMTU I used the fitting of an experimental deyo chip to explain the Kinunir's leap to sentience (don't put a sentient chip in a computer system running an experimental AI security system).

 

[Sigtrygg]

If I understand the development of Dungeons and Dragons correctly, each new default setting corresponded with each major edition, not to mention all the niche ones that took some fantasy trope and enlarged on it.

Each new Traveller edition seems to try to correct the errors of the last one, that's why GURPS seemed a reset, rather than like the Forgotten Realms, where they let the timeline move on.

GURPS Traveller is a very good idea and a very bad idea.
Good - showing how the 3I setting can be run using GURPS
Bad - it is the Third Imperium setting powered by GURPS
Good - used the most liked version of the 3I setting moved forward a few years
Bad - never explained the point of departure
Good - detailed rules for every aspect of the setting
Bad - detailed rules for every aspect of the setting using incorrect research or personal assumpmtions

 

[Sigtrygg]

"And perhaps more importantly CT does not, and CT formed the basic idea of what Traveller is for many people."

A lot of people today know little to nothing about Classic Traveller except possible our references. Traveller today is Mongoose and T5 which have crossovering. Mongoose continues with 3I. It becomes a bit of confusion when people refer back to the old first edition when discussios are supposed to be about the current rule and setting set. I thought we were referring to MgT in this thread then someone says that's not how Classic works. Classic was inspiration for the newest Traveller so let grandpa rock on the porch.

It is also the print on demand version of the Traveller Book and the cd collection available at a very reasonable price from FFE.
If new authors of 3I material for MgT actually did their research (and I do not mean the Travellerwiki as there is so much fanon on their it is verging on useless) rather than making stuff up based on what they think they know about the setting then there would be less negative criticism from the likes of myself and others.

 

[Condottiere]

Tee Five appears to be post-Imperium, so it tends to make that setting irrelevant, though I can't the an impression of what really replaces it, except maybe the Federation of United Planets?

I like GURPS/Traveller, but it doesn't give off a Traveller vibe; I still think it does give a a brilliant alternative viewpoint.

I like QLI for giving a snapshot of the Solomani Rim War, though I disagree as to the actual operational plan used by the Solomani Confederation Navy.

 

[steve98052]

. . . Most D&D setting have a great civilization which collapsed and the modern era is a sort of dark ages, the New Era comes closest to that with the collapse of the Imperium. I thought the 4th Imperium came too soon however.

There's also the Long Night, followed by the "explore new worlds" setting of Milieu 0, which unfortunately has little published material.

The original Classic had a tech level progression that was nice and detailed as far as TL15, but left anything beyond TL15 very fuzzy. To make a setting where it's possible to find a lot of cool rediscovered (or newly invented) technology well defined, it's pretty much necessary to go back to an era before TL15 was the end of the line in terms of play-tested rules.

Imagine the crew of a ship tasked by Cleon himself to re-contact worlds outside the newly founded Third Imperium. It's the top of the line, with all the best TL12 gear the mercantile exploration department can afford, and the players are the leaders of the contact team. They meet a very suspicious TL8 system; do they try to establish relations through diplomacy, try to intimidate them with their superior technology, or spy for long enough to prepare a stealth infiltration by a subsequent mission? They meet a pocket empire led by a small but remarkably advanced -- TL13! -- main world; do they keep the extent of the growing new Imperium secret and establish contact like a lesser power approaching a great power, or make the case that their six world's are no match for the Imperium in spite of their more advanced technology?

The rules all exist to play that adventure without the need to invent rules that might be found unplayable after a few sessions. Compare to this:

The Imperium has been hearing rumors of a new Vargr empire in Meshan Sector that finally resolves the fatal flaw of every past Vargr empire: a device that allows Vargr charisma to be effectively transmitted without direct contact, so the new Emperor of Meshan can command loyalty without personally swearing in his subjects, and without his subjects needing to personally swear in their subjects. Not only that, their warships include micro-factory damage control, and some even have disintegrator weapons.

How do you roll a loyalty check when the Vargr ship has its loyalty tested against a high charisma Imperial Vargr player character? How do you do the repair roll on a micro-factory ship? What's the defense roll for the combination of TL15 nuclear dampers and meson screens against a TL15 disintegrator? Going back in history is easier to play.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I, and others, have made the observation that the Long Night is an ideal setting for Traveller.

Is it the Long Night between the ROM and the 3I? Is it the Long Night that followed the release of Virus? Is it a Long Night following the collapse of the fifth Imperium?

Doesn't matter.

There are rumors there was once a mighty interstellar empire of mankind in this part of space.

There are pocket empires - one of which is where the PCs come from - keep it off board if you like. On the borders are the frontier worlds that are months away comm-wise beyond them is the true unknown.

Go trade/explore/fight in mercenary actions/take on evil megacorporations/conduct piracy/discover new races/discover the ruins of old civilisations/encounter Vargr, Aslan, Hivers, Ithklur, K'kree/a pocket empire of evil mind reading scum/a pocket empire of enlightened psionic masters etc etc.

 

[Sigtrygg]

And think on this.

PCs discover a derelict ship fitted with tachyon cannons:
PC1 "Lol, they don't exist in the Imperium setting"
PC2 "Which Imperium, the first, third or seventh?"

Note - for tachyon cannon substitute: wormhole network, stargates, warp drive, ansible etc.