Damage Multiplier in the new HG, or One Shot, One Kill

[Geir]

If a small craft is 70+dtons, it can replace its 3 firm points with one fixed barbette.

Well the barbette is definitely treated as a firmpoint, but not necessarily as a fixed mount. It doesn't say one way or the other, as far as I can see. It could be that the barbette is always turret-like or a triple-firmpoint-consuming barbette is never turret-like, depending on how you fill the blank space in the rules.

 

[Arkathan]

Well the barbette is definitely treated as a firmpoint, but not necessarily as a fixed mount. It doesn't say one way or the other, as far as I can see. It could be that the barbette is always turret-like or a triple-firmpoint-consuming barbette is never turret-like, depending on how you fill the blank space in the rules.

I may be putting too much store in the following, but the only option that specifically says it can fire in any direction is the "single (not double or triple) turret" that you can replace one firm point with.
If a barbette can turn, why limit the turret to a single? Why not scale it so a double is two firm points and a triple is three?
Seems like a balance issue. Trade limited fire power for flexibility

 

[AndrewW]

If a small craft is 70+dtons, it can replace its 3 firm points with one fixed barbette.

It's a barbette, not a fixed mount. Only difference being if it is a missile or torpedo barbette it consumes an additional 2 tons being on firmpoints instead of a hardpoint.

 

[Arkathan]

It's a barbette, not a fixed mount. Only difference being if it is a missile or torpedo barbette it consumes an additional 2 tons being on firmpoints instead of a hardpoint.

That makes the blurb for the single turret firing in any direction and the restriction against double and triple make even less sense. (not advocating for double and triple fighter turrets, either - just trying to make sense of why the restriction and the specific wording on turrets if a non-missile barbette can fire in any direction)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Lets not forget that anything bigger than 5k dT can (and should) have up to twice the usual max in armor (HG2022 - p12, Military Hulls).

If a small craft is 70+dtons, it can replace its 3 firm points with one fixed barbette.

So, fighters are completely nerfed?

 

[Condottiere]

1. The issue of barbette based weapon systems as fixed mounts has always been a bit vague.

2. Fixed mounts had been fixed at three per hardpoint, with no indication that quad turrets changed that.

3. Harrier gives the option of embedding torpedoes tubes directly, or fixedly, onto a hardpoint, at two per tonne, with no indication whether you could squeeze in three for one and a half tonnes.

4. If the number of required firmpoints has been changed to three from two, it may be an indication that if you substituted three firmpoints for one hardpoint, as missiles and torpedoes have no range restrictions, that could be too much optimization.

5. Firmpoints were restricted to single turrets; volume should be shrunk to reflect this restriction; also considering that energy weapons had restricted range and power input.

 

[Arkathan]

So, fighters are completely nerfed?

Andrew says the barbette is not fixed mounted, so not completely. Barbettes got a buff, so it balances.
I'm still trying to understand the turret limit in light of barbettes not being fixed.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Here is the rule when it used to make sense and didn't have page after page of discussion:

Weapons: A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present. All computations, however, may assume that the craft carries one turret. Weight, tech level, cost, and energy point restrictions must be observed. The pilot is assumed to be the gunner for one type of weapon on the craft. If additional types are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon. Exception: no additional gunner is required for sandcasters.

This is of course from the 81 edition of CT HG.

Small craft can mount the equivalent of one turret - so a triple mount (or quad now that T5 has green lit this) 1t turret, or a 2t energy weapon turret, or even a 3t PA turret, but no barbette.

The problems start to arise when you try and mix the above weapon mounts. Can you stick eight beam lasers in a 2t turret? Or how about twenty beam lasers in a 5t barbette?

Then the Solomani Alien book confused things even further with actual fixed mounts:

Fixed Weapons Mounts: Solomani ships may have fixed weapons mounts (as opposed to turret mounted weapons).
Fixed weapons mounts allow up to two weapons to be attached per each hardpoint on the ship and do not require fire control tonnage or a turret. Weapons in fixed weapons mounts are operated by a gunner on the bridge and are subject to an attacker's DM - 2 in space combat.
A ship is allowed fixed weapons mounts equal to the model number of the computer installed on the ship (Model/2 computer allows two hardpoints to have fixed weapons mounts).

Still limited by hardpoint number based on ship size.
No turret or fire control - so therefore a book entry of 0 for mass displacement. Your fixed mount weapons cost no tonnage.

So a starship fixed mount may be two lasers, two fusion guns or even two particle accelerators.

But a small craft 'fixed mount' is not actually a fixed mount, it is a rigid mount. It comes with a displacement cost of 1 ton of fire control minimum all the way to 3t if it is a PA.

The next issue is the difference between the LBB2 fire control and the LBB5 turret - in LBB2 you paid for the fire control as a tonnage cost and the turret free, but in HG they changed it to a tonnage cost for the turret with no fire control cost.

So what exactly is the difference between a 1t basic turret and a 2t energy weapon turret? How many beam lasers can a 5 t barbette hold?

 

[AndrewW]

The next issue is the difference between the LBB2 fire control and the LBB5 turret - in LBB2 you paid for the fire control as a tonnage cost and the turret free, but in HG they changed it to a tonnage cost for the turret with no fire control cost.

The Mongoose High Guard 2nd edition simply incorporated the fire control tonnage into the turret rather then being a separate item. It is still there, just part of the turret now.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Andrew says the barbette is not fixed mounted, so not completely. Barbettes got a buff, so it balances.
I'm still trying to understand the turret limit in light of barbettes not being fixed.

Of course barbettes are not fixed, they are a type of turret.

The rule is actually simple, despite the text:
A firmpoint is a limited type of hardpoint. Just as a hardpoint it can mount a fixed mount or a turret, but only one weapon per firmpoint. That's it.


The firing arc of a barbette is not the problem with nerfing, it's twice the size (and hence cost) of a barbette fighter, and it can still not penetrate Armour 30 of a hi-tech warship.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Here is the rule when it used to make sense and didn't have page after page of discussion:
"Weapons: A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present. All computations, however, may assume that the craft carries one turret. Weight, tech level, cost, and energy point restrictions must be observed. ..."
This is of course from the 81 edition of CT HG.

The type of mount had no game mechanical effect, so could be freely chosen when making an illustration or deck plan.

Small craft can mount the equivalent of one turret - so a triple mount (or quad now that T5 has green lit this) 1t turret, or a 2t energy weapon turret, or even a 3t PA turret, but no barbette.

A barbette was just a fancy name for a turret, so of course a fighter could mount a TL-14 PA turret (aka barbette), as made explicitly clear on p.36:

SMALL CRAFT DESIGN CHECKLIST
...
8. Select weaponry from turret table, such as sandcasters (block 16). lasers (block 21), energy weapons (block 22), particle accelerators and barbettes (block 23), and missile
racks (block 25).

The problems start to arise when you try and mix the above weapon mounts. Can you stick eight beam lasers in a 2t turret? Or how about twenty beam lasers in a 5t barbette?

No, of course not.

Then the Solomani Alien book confused things even further with actual fixed mounts:

Still limited by hardpoint number based on ship size.
No turret or fire control - so therefore a book entry of 0 for mass displacement. Your fixed mount weapons cost no tonnage.

Just like turrets in LBB2 takes no space. It's an expansion of the LBB2 rules.

So a starship fixed mount may be two lasers, two fusion guns or even two particle accelerators.

You might argue that is a grey area, but I have always assumed PAs are still limited to one weapon per mount.

But a small craft 'fixed mount' is not actually a fixed mount, it is a rigid mount. It comes with a displacement cost of 1 ton of fire control minimum all the way to 3t if it is a PA.

Agreed, a ship "Fixed Mount" is not the same as a small craft mount, whether rigid or not.

The next issue is the difference between the LBB2 fire control and the LBB5 turret - in LBB2 you paid for the fire control as a tonnage cost and the turret free, but in HG they changed it to a tonnage cost for the turret with no fire control cost.

It's just a simplification, the result is the same: One Dt for a SLM turret.

So what exactly is the difference between a 1t basic turret and a 2t energy weapon turret?

Whatever you want it to be, when you draw the deck plan.

How many beam lasers can a 5 t barbette hold?

None; the mounts for lasers are explicitly enumerated: Single turret, double turret, triple turret, and (presumably) fixed mount.

Anything else is a house rule, and then it is whatever you want it to be.

 

[Condottiere]

You can stick a lot of weapon systems on a platform, just that Traveller rules prevent this, the same reason spinal mounts are restricted to one per hull, for reasons of balance.

If you can have five missile launchers on a five tonne barbette, you can have five lasers.

 

[Arkathan]

Of course barbettes are not fixed, they are a type of turret.

The rule is actually simple, despite the text:
A firmpoint is a limited type of hardpoint. Just as a hardpoint it can mount a fixed mount or a turret, but only one weapon per firmpoint. That's it.


The firing arc of a barbette is not the problem with nerfing, it's twice the size (and hence cost) of a barbette fighter, and it can still not penetrate Armour 30 of a hi-tech warship.

Which is why I say restricting double and triple turrets make no sense.
You've just combined three firmpoints for one barbette. Why not combine two for a double turret and three for a triple turret?
The extra wording specifying the single turret can fire in any direction is another point. Why have it?
It is simply not consistent.

 

[Arkathan]

You can stick a lot of weapon systems on a platform, just that Traveller rules prevent this, the same reason spinal mounts are restricted to one per hull, for reasons of balance.

If you can have five missile launchers on a five tonne barbette, you can have five lasers.

The rules say you CAN, but they DON'T in the OTU.

The weapons in the barbette are defined as a single unit. The stats for the beam and pulse barbettes are statistically inferior to five lasers firing at once, but if you get through armor, will so three times the damage over five lasers firing together.

 

[Condottiere]

I can't speak for damage optimization for the current half edition, but five tonnes is a lot of space.

If the issue is mix and matching, it would resolve the same as a turret's.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Which is why I say restricting double and triple turrets make no sense.
You've just combined three firmpoints for one barbette. Why not combine two for a double turret and three for a triple turret?

It's a completely arbitrary set of limitations. I guess the idea is that fighters have "lighter weapons", so they are artificially limited, despite being the same size and cost as shipboard weapons.

The extra wording specifying the single turret can fire in any direction is another point. Why have it?

To separate them from fixed mounts that can only fire in a single direction?

 

[Arkathan]

To separate them from fixed mounts that can only fire in a single direction?

As you say, barbettes are just big turrets, and so fire in any direction... so why specify the one, single not double or triple, and not the other if it is obvious both fire in all directions?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

As you say, barbettes are just big turrets, and so fire in any direction... so why specify the one, single not double or triple, and not the other if it is obvious both fire in all directions?

In my experience the authors are not engineers or mathematicians, they just don't write all that exactly from a logical view.

Fighters can only carry single turrets, so I guess mentioning anything else would be superfluous? Barbettes are a special case.

 

[Condottiere]

Original gangster fighters had spacecraft options for weapon systems.

If I'm not mistaken, if you decided to place one or more spacecraft lasers on a groundside vehicle, they aren't castrated, nor limited.

 

[kevinknight]

So, fighters are completely nerfed?

Basically, yes. Taking the Armor 25 Atlantic Class Heavy Cruiser, almost all weapons available to small craft are completely useless. Torpedo barbettes are your only viable option (and nuclear missiles) so you just hang back with your carrier and unload, pop back in to reload, rinse, repeat.

Atlantic Class Heavy Cruiser​	​
Armor: 25​	​
​	​
Turrets​	Only double or triple fusion guns have a minute chance of damaging it​
Barbettes​	Ion Cannons will affect it, but the effects of losing that small amount of power is negligible​
​	Fusion Barbettes have a small chance of inflicting minor damage​
​	Remaining direct fire barbettes are useless​
Missiles​	Nuclear FTW! Anything else you are just wasting ammo​
Torpedoes​	Lots of options​