D&D 4th (probably to be released soon) and Conan

I am sure we won't be seeing any devils, nor demons, nor references to human sacrifices. A fairly huge step back for D&D, considering that these arguments were present in AD&D 1e (which, btw, I guess is a fairly good system to run Hyborian Age games)
 
Probably right about that.

More proof in my humble opinion that political correctness is simply publicly sanctioned censorship...

:cry:
 
Dame, I hate PC! When TSR got all PC, it sucked the life out of the products. All of the sex, violence, nude art, occult themes, slavery and other dark-fantasy elements made 1st ed AD&D what it was! They tunned what was a good mix of Middle-Earth and Hyboria, and made it into a family-friendly suck-fest like a Narnia styled Middle-Earth. And the shadows of PC still lords its evil presence over the game to this day.

One of the things I hate what D&D did to fantasy was to dumb it down to a dame cliché. Sure, Conan is seen as a cliché into its self (bull-headed barbarians and naked slave-girls), but a least the RPG based on the REH works has ideas that broke the mold. The level of the dungeon-crawl cliché is crazy and wide spread! When I talk to people at the Wizards message-board about the adventures I run, they think I'm some sort of weirdo who dont know how to play D&D. They cant seem to grasp the idea that Adventures would splurge most of their swag on booze and whores, how romance, mystery, and political theater are good role-playing elements, and how not EVERY dame adventure needs to be in a dungeon or be set up like a dungeon (like the so called "Urban Dungeons") filled with nothing but monsters and little or no humans! They even think the dark-fantasy elements that are noted above are way to inappropriate for D&D! WTF!!! :?
 
From http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3980981#post3980981

WotC announces plans for 4e SRD and OGL

On January 7th, Wizards of the Coast held a courtesy call with the 3rd party publishers who had expressed close interest in gaining advance access to the 4e rules.

Attending the call were:

* Adamant Entertainment
* EN Publishing
* Expeditious Retreat Press
* Fantasy Flight Games
* Goodman Games
* Green Ronin Publishing
* Mongoose Publishing
* Necromancer Games
* Paizo Publishing
* Paradigm Concepts
* Privateer Press

W.
 
@Malcadon: nice rant. Just saw it now. ^^

@warzen: keep in mind that MGP doesn't make only Conan, but also generic D20 splats like the Slayer's Guides, Quintessential Series and so forth. If they want to stay in that market they will have to adapt that stuff to 4E.
 
Clovenhoof said:
@warzen: keep in mind that MGP doesn't make only Conan, but also generic D20 splats like the Slayer's Guides, Quintessential Series and so forth. If they want to stay in that market they will have to adapt that stuff to 4E.

And they'll adapt Conan also.
Honestly, I don't see MGP keeping Conan a 3.5 compatible edition only.

W.
 
And they'll adapt Conan also.
Honestly, I don't see MGP keeping Conan a 3.5 compatible edition only.

except for the fact that matt sprange has stated they wont be because 3rd ed suits conan fine.
 
Well it could go either way. thing is, the new OGL requires use of the PHB, so 3rd party publishers using 4e cannot make a complete game in one book; the pHB will still be required to play!

If it wasn't for that I could totally see mongoose 4e'fying conan...but now I really don't know. There are certain advantages to going 4E ofcourse; its a better system and has more options. 4E will actually have more feats than regular conan d20 allows, it will have talents, maneuvers, etc.
 
Krushnak said:
And they'll adapt Conan also.
Honestly, I don't see MGP keeping Conan a 3.5 compatible edition only.

except for the fact that matt sprange has stated they wont be because 3rd ed suits conan fine.
Peter Adkison said "we are not going to publish any other books beyond PHB, MM and DMG" when D&D 3.0 was published. In fact, this sentence convinced me to buy the core 3.0 books. The story as we know it is what convinced me that those books were the first and last 3.x D&D books I bought.

One thing is what a publisher would like to do, the other is what he is required to do to stay in the market.
 
rabindranath72 said:
One thing is what a publisher would like to do, the other is what he is required to do to stay in the market.

This is true. However, up to this point, we have seen nothing to suggest Conan should go 4e, and a few things that suggest we very much shouldn't. 4e would have to be something pretty special for us to make any move, and we won't succumb to temptation to make that move just to stay 'current'.

Conan is all about Old School anyway :)
 
Believe it or not, I have been keeping track of 4th ed since they announced it back in September. EN World keeps me updated on all the latest news on it. From that I have read, the game is going to easier to play, its going to change the background and fluff dramatically, and the monsters are going to be nerfed so you can fight more of them. From what I can deduce, Conan is a poor fit for 4th ed, sure the rules are going to smoother, but there are a lot of changes based around suping up the PCs for a high fantasy adventure and nerfing some parts so they are to weak for a sword & sorcery setting. That is, most classes (even fighters and rogues) are enhanced with magical or supernatural abilities and to remove or retool it for S&S will make them weak. And to further that, some of the new simplified rules would Nerf things more for the S&S PCs. e.g.: they removed the critical confirm roll, but is just max damage, as monsters can roll critical damage. The fun part about 3rd ed a critical rolls in Conan is how if your weapon do make a critical hit, it becomes an event of blood and gore, Conan style! Another thing they Nerfed is how their are no longer any life-or-death saving throws, because they fear all the young Pokemon players would take the death of their PC way to hard! A major problem is that 4th ed is focused race advancement and do you really what half the book to be fulled with racial feats. Advancement is also Nerfed by the fact that progression is unified to just +0.5/level (supplemented by feats and class abilities). One thing that annoys me are all the of unbelievable glad-hand bonuses (if you stand close enough to a ally, you get some sort of bonus).

In all, the 4th ed seems to focus on a MMORPG-style of adventure with balanced level-based encounters (in favorer of the PCs), agro-control, and MMORPG-type roles, like Tanks, Healers and Fire-support. :roll:

Oh yah, thanks for your coment Clovenhoof! :D
 
And to further that, some of the new simplified rules would Nerf things more for the S&S PCs. e.g.: they removed the critical confirm roll, but is just max damage, as monsters can roll critical damage. The fun part about 3rd ed a critical rolls in Conan is how if your weapon do make a critical hit, it becomes an event of blood and gore, Conan style!

It's really a tradeoff. I also read about this new rule and _basically_ I like it, I'm just not sure if I like it for Conan. ;) It's a two-edged, two-bladed sword, so to speak.
Getting rid of the confirmation roll is nice for the players because they will score crits more often, and it's bad for the players too because the opponents will crit the PCs more often. So basically it's more crits for everyone. By the way, it occured more than once that one of my players was "saved by the bell" because some big nasty bugger scored a threat on them but then failed to confirm the crit. So my players kinda appreciate the confirmation roll. ;)
On the other hand, they nerfed the crit damage, which makes critical hits a lot less critical. This may work for D&D but not for Conan, where the nuts and bolts of combat is forcing Massive Damage saves. Implementing the nerfed crits would make it almost impossible to exceed the 20 pts threshold with one-handed weapons (you'd need very high strength AND power attack), which in turn would shift the weapon preference further toward two-handed weapons (which would in turn guarantee MDS on every crit).

no longer any life-or-death saving throws

Yeah there you have it black on white, 4E simply doesn't work for Conan. Geez, and there I thought _I_ was a carebear.

BLOOD MAKES THE GRASS GROW!
 
msprange said:
rabindranath72 said:
One thing is what a publisher would like to do, the other is what he is required to do to stay in the market.

This is true. However, up to this point, we have seen nothing to suggest Conan should go 4e, and a few things that suggest we very much shouldn't. 4e would have to be something pretty special for us to make any move, and we won't succumb to temptation to make that move just to stay 'current'.

Conan is all about Old School anyway :)

Preach it, by Mitra!
 
Xex said:
Well it could go either way. thing is, the new OGL requires use of the PHB, so 3rd party publishers using 4e cannot make a complete game in one book; the pHB will still be required to play!

If it wasn't for that I could totally see mongoose 4e'fying conan...but now I really don't know. There are certain advantages to going 4E ofcourse; its a better system and has more options. 4E will actually have more feats than regular conan d20 allows, it will have talents, maneuvers, etc.

You realize your last paragraph is a list of opinions, or at best, "stated directions" don't you?

No one knows if 4e will be better than 3.x, let alone Conan. If fantasy superheroes are your cup of tea, you may be right. Everything I'm reading about 4e is 180 degrees away from sword-n-sorcery gaming and the antithesis of what I would view as Conan.

But those are MY opinions.
 
I just read - for all I know, a rumour - that the "new" 4E license is going to be closer to the old pre-OGL license, to the effect that you can only publish D&D supplements, but not different standalone games like Iron Heroes, Mutants and Masterminds -- or, for that matter, Conan.
Should this turn out to be the case, we needn't worry any longer that MGP might feel compelled to heave Conan onto the 4E bandwagon.
 
Conan will NOT be 4e'ed, folks. 4e is going to be nearly entirely different to any version of 3.x out there, Conan included. It'd be a complete rewrite from the ground up, and my guess is that's why Mongoose has plopped a big, honkin' Second Edition in our glorious laps. They undoubtedly got industry twitterings as to the direction Wizards was headed and decided to give us the best 3.x Conan there could be.

Now that's not to say that a 4e based Conan couldn't be produced ina few years time, but frankly all of the 4e stuff I've read over on the Wizards forums is a load of stink anyway. Seriously, the tid bits they've leaked will have to have HUGE reams of support and back-up rule to even MAKE SENSE. I've been at this RPG playin' hobby for thirty (count 'em kiddos; 3 and 0) years, and I was ambiguously dubious when 3.0 was looming on the horizon. I read the little 6 page pamphlet that Wizards released as a preview (basically, char-gen and combat in a real nut shell, but functional) and me and my buddies started rolling up characters right then and there, speculating and salivating over the "new D&D" we were all going to be blessed with soon.

Not so with 4e, folks. I've never read worse written rules. Seriously. This isn't just griping in the face of change, but rather total dissatisfaction with the product they're trying to sell me, in every aspect.

Characters will have 30 levels instead of 20. There are no skill ranks of points. Most feats are now Race or Class level-ups or Generics. All Combat targets either AC or Saves (like Dragon Breath targeting a charcter's REF save). It's basic game engine stuff that is being completely over-hauled. Not only is this major change happening for no apparent reason (it ain't broke, so don't fix it), but the changes made are poorly crafted.

What sort of poor craftsmanship, you ask? The elf race has been made a savage, woodland type elf only (?), and they ahve special elfy powers. The two they get to start (yes, only 2, die-hards!) is a re-roll on any missed combat roll because they are accuate folk, and the ability to afford a +1 Perception to all allies within 5 squares. First off, yes...5 squres. Apparenty there's no need to bother with pesky "feet" anymore. :roll: However, a basic game mechanic of a re-roll simply doesn't equate to "accuracy". It's just another opportunity to fail as much as it is to succeed; moreso if it's a tough hit anyway. Accuracy is achieved through bonuses in RPGs. The +1 Perception is a better clue to the skill set direction of 4e. A single "perception" instead of Listen, Search, Spot, what have you. Fine. But granting a +1 to everyone within 25 feet? Other people hear better when closer to the elf? The elf affords this to allies, but not to himself? What if there are multiple elves around; can my character end up with a +4 Perception in a party full of elves? It's called crappy writing, and Conan and Mongoose are beyond that, regardless of the flaws that 3.x has.

And this is a game due out in March.

Don't sweat it folks. Conan as it is now is here for a good, long time, as far as I'm concerned, and it looks like Mongoose has the same plans.
 
Sutek said:
Conan will NOT be 4e'ed, folks. 4e is going to be nearly entirely different to any version of 3.x out there, Conan included. It'd be a complete rewrite from the ground up, and my guess is that's why Mongoose has plopped a big, honkin' Second Edition in our glorious laps. They undoubtedly got industry twitterings as to the direction Wizards was headed and decided to give us the best 3.x Conan there could be.

Now that's not to say that a 4e based Conan couldn't be produced ina few years time, but frankly all of the 4e stuff I've read over on the Wizards forums is a load of stink anyway. Seriously, the tid bits they've leaked will have to have HUGE reams of support and back-up rule to even MAKE SENSE. I've been at this RPG playin' hobby for thirty (count 'em kiddos; 3 and 0) years, and I was ambiguously dubious when 3.0 was looming on the horizon. I read the little 6 page pamphlet that Wizards released as a preview (basically, char-gen and combat in a real nut shell, but functional) and me and my buddies started rolling up characters right then and there, speculating and salivating over the "new D&D" we were all going to be blessed with soon.

Not so with 4e, folks. I've never read worse written rules. Seriously. This isn't just griping in the face of change, but rather total dissatisfaction with the product they're trying to sell me, in every aspect.

Characters will have 30 levels instead of 20. There are no skill ranks of points. Most feats are now Race or Class level-ups or Generics. All Combat targets either AC or Saves (like Dragon Breath targeting a charcter's REF save). It's basic game engine stuff that is being completely over-hauled. Not only is this major change happening for no apparent reason (it ain't broke, so don't fix it), but the changes made are poorly crafted.

What sort of poor craftsmanship, you ask? The elf race has been made a savage, woodland type elf only (?), and they ahve special elfy powers. The two they get to start (yes, only 2, die-hards!) is a re-roll on any missed combat roll because they are accuate folk, and the ability to afford a +1 Perception to all allies within 5 squares. First off, yes...5 squres. Apparenty there's no need to bother with pesky "feet" anymore. :roll: However, a basic game mechanic of a re-roll simply doesn't equate to "accuracy". It's just another opportunity to fail as much as it is to succeed; moreso if it's a tough hit anyway. Accuracy is achieved through bonuses in RPGs. The +1 Perception is a better clue to the skill set direction of 4e. A single "perception" instead of Listen, Search, Spot, what have you. Fine. But granting a +1 to everyone within 25 feet? Other people hear better when closer to the elf? The elf affords this to allies, but not to himself? What if there are multiple elves around; can my character end up with a +4 Perception in a party full of elves? It's called crappy writing, and Conan and Mongoose are beyond that, regardless of the flaws that 3.x has.

And this is a game due out in March.

Don't sweat it folks. Conan as it is now is here for a good, long time, as far as I'm concerned, and it looks like Mongoose has the same plans.

Wow, my take on the game was completely different - yet ended up at the same conclusion.
The way I see it, all the good stuff that 4e has in it already exists in Conan and Conan does not have the crappy stuff that 4e has in it.
For example, 4e is going to magical traditions instead of schools of magic. This focus on traditions seems similar to the adept paths that Scholars can take. 4e will have richer rules for melee characters. Conan already has that. 4e will have standard saves for spells which is similar to Conan's dodge and parry rules. But Conan does not have the crappy stuff that 4e has. Conan does not tie role to class. Conan does not have a confusing, overly complex, rules heavy melange of different classes to represent different types of primary spell casters. The list goes on. It just looks to me like 4e is following Conan's lead (intentionally or not).
 
Sutek said:
the ability to afford a +1 Perception to all allies within 5 squares.

I generally like what I hear of the skills system, as it makes it easier to run on the fly, and getting rid of things like synergy bonuses, etc. make it easier as well. Putting back in random miscellaneous bonuses like this Perception bonus will only make it as much a pain in the ass to run as before though, that's just dumb.
 
Back
Top