Craft Skill Question/Critique

[Ravager_of_Worlds]

Why Craft (swordsmith)?

For the craft skill, there is craft (armoursmith), craft (bowyer) and craft (weaponsmith). These skills take care of making armour, bows and weapons.

But in two instances, Mongoose has a “Craft (swordsmith)” in print. The first is in the prerequisite for the Akbtitanan Smith feat, the second is in an article by Ian Sturrock about 1-2 player groups.

So why the sub-skill of Craft (swordsmith)? If Craft (weaponsmith) can be used for axes, spears, bardiches, shortswords, daggers, poniards and the like… what is so hard about making a sword? Why should it require another set of skill points? The sword is already expensive, which requires much more time to forge a sword in the first place. But why should a character need 2 sets of Craft skills to create weapons that are not bows? There’s no moving parts in a sword or an axe. The sword uses more metal, but not much more than a shortsword or a bardiche’s blade. Why does Mongoose feel it needs to differentiate between Craft (weaponsmith) and Craft (swordsmith)?

I mean, why not have Craft (light armour), Craft (medium armour) and Craft (heavy armour) while you’re at it? Surely these various types of armour, from leather to full plate use different techniques and designs? Let alone shields! What do they fall under, armour or weaponsmith? Or do they get Craft (shields) as well?

While my GM and I both agree that differentiating between Craft (weaponsmith) and Craft (swordsmith) is ludicrous, I really want to see Mongoose’s reasoning for this. Can anyone defend this position?

 

[Arkobla Conn]

I am pondering this question before answering...

 

[Golem2176]

Anyway, how is crafting a weapon different from crafting a blade/sword? If the weaponsmithing skill were broken down it should based on culture, not just the weapon groups themselves.

 

[Qjedi]

I might see it as a skill used to create full blown battleswords and I can see it for use with the Akbitanan weapons feat, but as for campaign use, not in my game. I already have a surprising lack of skills among the PC's I play with and run for. I figured that the weaponsmith covered it and it was one of the many typos in the book, like the Zhaibar knife picture and the mentions of rapier and the copy/pastes from the SRD.
Love the gameplay and love the concepts used, guys, but your proofreader needs to be me. :wink:
Even if they come out with an official change, I'll still use weaponsmithing. Just as a side note on this topic, I also allow Craft (Blacksmithing) to provide a synergy benefit to the various metalcrafting skills. Does anyone else do this?

 

[Golem2176]

Yes, Qjedi, I allow for a +1 synergy bonus with weaponsmithing for the first 8 ranks in blacksmithing, then an additional +1 for every 4 after that.

 

[Qjedi]

Nice way to do it, Golem. Why the change from "5 ranks = +2 synergy bonus", out of curiosity?
I do like it and might adapt the way you do that for my own game...

 

[Golem2176]

Just a house rule that I find working better for me. And my players like it too. Anyway the basis for it is that is the more experience you having in a related skill, the better you should be at at the subskills associated with it. I also apply the houserule to craft (armorsmithing).

 

[Golem2176]

I also have two feats that I created for my campaign. They may not be appropriate for all campaigns though, they are developed for worlds that are soaked in arcane magics.

Efficient Item Creation [Item Creation]
Creating magical items comes naturally to you making it easier to create them.
Prerequisite: Any 2 Item Creation Feats, Craft 6 ranks+
Benefit: When creating a magic item all numeric values are reduced by 25%. This includes xp spent and the value of any material items and/or wealth that must be sacrificed.
Special: All items created, regardless of being magical or not, have its hardness and hit points increased by 25%, with fractions being rounded up to the nearest whole integer.

Masterful Item Creation [Item Creation]
The magic items you craft are more resilient and also
Prerequisite: Any 3 Item Creation Feats, Craft 12 ranks + and Efficient Item Creation.
Benefit: When creating a magic item all numeric values are reduced by 50%. This includes xp spent and the value of any material items and/or wealth that must be sacrificed. The time required to craft the item is reduced by 25% as well.
Special: Magic items created by someone who has this feat have the creator’s personal seal on it. Anyone that succeeds at a Knowledge (arcana) check knows the name of the person that created the item. The DC for such a check is equivalent to the creator’s level at the time the item was created plus his rank in the craft skill. All items created, regardless of being magical or not, have its hardness and hit points increased by 50%, with fractions being rounded up to the nearest whole integer.

 

[Ravager_of_Worlds]

Hmm... some people voted to keep the Craft (swordsmith) skill but fail to reason why. Is it just blind obedience to the rule book? Or is the poll position dead on for your argument?

The other side of the sword emphasis on Akbitanan weaponry should be noted however...

The Akbitanan weaponry also states that one might persaude an Akbitanan smith to make an axe or spear, but they will not be able to guarentee the strength of the shaft (which is made of wood).

I'm still waiting for a more detailed reason other than a sword is time consuming to create. That's already reflected in the high price of each sword. It takes that much longer to craft (a few weeks instead of 1 week of constant work). Anyone?

 

[InsomNY]

I haven't voted. I don't really care all that much. But there's a good rationale for keeping Craft (Swordsmith) separate:

Swords really are harder to make well than other metal weapons. The balance of an axe head or spear point is not all that significant to its performance. their ability to hold an edge yet remain flexible is likewise not a factor. Both of these are crucial in sword design. I have held $30 swords, $300 swords and $3,000 swords, and one really can feel the difference.

A sword must be light and maneuverable so the wielder doesn't become fatigued, yet still have enough mass in the right place to deliver a forceful blow. It must be durable, because it is more likely to be used both for defense and attack than any other weapon. It must be hard and able to hold an edge, because the sharpness of a sword is more important than that of an axe or piercing weapon. Yet it must also be flexible so it can stand up to a lifetime of fighting and not break when it encounters something it can't easily penetrate.

I could go on like this, but (a) I don't want you to think I'm barking and (b) I have to conduct a phone interview in a few minutes. This is just something for you to think about.

 

[Faraer]

It comes down to genre emulation. In the Conan stories, and sword and sorcery in general, is there such a character as a 'swordsmith' distinct from one who makes weapons generally? If so, it's sensible to have the two skills.

Well, in the Conan stories weapon-crafting isn't hugely prominent one way or the other, but the rules as written seem reasonable. Of course, it isn't a very appropriate skill for a Conan PC to have anyway.

 

[BhilJhoanz]

I don't know much about making any weapon but here's what TV has taught me:

1. Don't schedule 2 dates with 2 women on the the same night at the same event
2. There are car ramps hidden behind evey stack of boxes. (Exception: chicken coops.)
3. It only snows during December.
4. Fools are to be pitied.
5. Making swords is more difficult than making other weapons and requires special craft skills

On this, there can be no debate!

 

[Ravager_of_Worlds]

Well, in the Conan stories weapon-crafting isn't hugely prominent one way or the other, but the rules as written seem reasonable. Of course, it isn't a very appropriate skill for a Conan PC to have anyway. -Faraer

Hmmm.... while the 1982 smash film of the year isn't embraced by Howard elitists, it is the highest grossing project post Howard. Milius' vision had huge ramifications (spurring the Beastmaster series, Red Sonja, Dragonslayer and a host of other imitators) for the film industry. If you notice the beginning credits of the film, you may see a Cimmerian smith hard at work at a forge, and just a little later, a young Conan learning about the Riddle of Steel.

Since the players in my group have all seen the movie, but have not read the books, I'll dispute your assertion that Craft has nothing Conan about it. Except that someone made all of Conan's swords... and his armour... and anything else our barbarian hero used. The ideas of Conan seem to be much more in line with survival, knowing a little about everything and being self sufficient. Conan is a warrior, thief, pirate and dabbler in magic. That is a barbarian, at its core, able to be versatile and use anything and everything. If craft is not a heroic skill in your opinion, let's see how many heroic things your character can do with just his fists of fury. If that is the case, I'd say you have made a strong case for Kung Fu the Legendary Journeys.

I digress.

We have one argument for the amount of balance and how long it takes to create a sword. Considering that the sword first became differentiated from the dagger in 3,000 BC (real history), there doesn't really seem to be much to it. A dagger needs balance, edge and a point and we've been making those since a humanoid with opposable thumbs first picked up a piece of flint to kill his next meal.

The following link is from the BBC-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/weapons_03.shtml

So far, I see mongoose satisfying the "expensive to make" criteria of early swords. Simply put, they used a lot of metal. So did plate armor. Why does that necessitate a different skill? There numerous types of swords, each with their own technique and variation of design, but the same can be said for spears, axes, daggers and any other weapon. The fact is, once we learned how to make bronze, the sword was readily made in Greece, Egypt and India.

Last, and I hope this doesn't sound like a rant, how many people are running Cimmerian Barbarians that crush the jeweled crowns of the earth under their sandaled feet? Simply saying that a skill isn't very Conan is like saying anything the character didn't personally do doesn't belong in his world. If this was so, Howard wouldn't have written about so many magical devices, traps, sorcerers, demons, thieves, pirates, etc. Now would he?

I still am unconvinced of the seperation of swordsmith from weaponsmith. Why does it require seperate ranks? Why this aberration from the norm of the system? Why not just extend this craft skill into its subsets. There's a huge difference in leather armor construction and chain mail or plate mail, but they didn't bother to seperate this scale? What does Mongoose have against weaponsmiths?

-Note: I play a Nordheimer weaponsmith and while my game is fine, I'm still peeved at the illogical position Mongoose has taken on this skill. Otherwise I'm fairly impressed with the game. If Mongoose was concerned that adventurers would spend all their time making crap instead of just stealing it, shouldn't that be the GM's concern and not the game manufacturer?

 

[BhilJhoanz]

It seems to me that you link refutes your position:

Swords were very costly to make, and a sign of high status. The blades were usually double-edged and up to 90cm, or a little over, in length, but early single-edged sabres are also known. They were worn in leather-bound wooden scabbards. Early blades were pattern-welded, a technique in which strips of wrought iron and mild steel were twisted and forged together, with the addition of a hardened edge. Later blades of homogeneous steel, imported probably from the Rhineland, bore inlaid makers' marks and inscriptions, such as INGELRII or ULFBERHT. Viking craftsmen often added their own elaborately decorated hilts, and many swords were given names, such as Leg-biter and Gold-hilt.

It seems as if Spears and Axes were the weapons of choice. Many early swords (at least in the mediteranean) were thrusting swords (like the dagger) poor construction would leave you with a bent sword if you slashed with it.

Personally, I don't give a crap about weapon smithing. If Tewelde, the Reaver of the Isles can't find the loot needed to buy a weapon, he'll steal one and if he can't steal one he'd be dead! So, Northman, hide behind your leather apron and argue with the mutes -- I'll be stoking the fires of your women!

 

[Yokiboy]

Personally, I don't give a crap about weapon smithing. If Tewelde, the Reaver of the Isles can't find the loot needed to buy a weapon, he'll steal one and if he can't steal one he'd be dead! So, Northman, hide behind your leather apron and argue with the mutes -- I'll be stoking the fires of your women!

Ouch! Big time burn ther BhilJhoanz. :lol:

But you're probably in for it now, you just don't aggravate a Nordheimir.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Anonymous]

The link refers to the relative importance of the various swords at its time. The art of pattern welding is known across the world when working with iron. Katanas were folded much the same way. If you've never heard of the C69 Dragon Slayer, then I suggest you look it up. A normal Katana has a hardness of 60 on the hardness scale. The C69 has, guess what? A hardness of 69. This is the best that modern technology can create.

However, on the same hardness scale, the early swords still had around 50 or 55. There was fundamentally no difference in how the weaponsmiths of Greece and Egypt created their own swords. The Greek sword was indeed used primarily for thrusting, and served as the precursor of the Roman Gladius. However, the Middle Eastern swords were variants of the scythe and often were curved- such as the Sapara (Assyrian Sickle Sword) and the Kopsh (Egyptian Sickle Sword).

The method of cutting or thrusting didn't matter, a sword could do either or both. Often the Greeks would simply rebend their bronze blades after a battle. This stopped when people started making the swords out of iron. The spear, javelin and axe are indeed easier to make (in that order), but I think this is already reflected in the requisite DCs. Mongoose knows what's it's talking about regarding DCs and weapon group lists, but the Craft (swordsmith) idea is frankly pretty useless. The only swordsmiths who devoted themselves entirely to sword making were the Japanese because the Katana, Wakizashi and No-Dachi were all in high demand by Samurai. However, even these warriors used spears, chain, hafted and ranged weapons. Even the Japanese smith knows how to mend or create these weapons. The hard part is learning how to shape and mold iron/steel. Each material requires new ways of forging, as any smith will tell you. What you make isn't half as important as what you make it out of (and yes, I know prepositions at the end sentences are no-nos). Each weapon piece indeed require variant shaping techniques when working with the metal, but if Mongoose wants to reflect this, then it should break up the Craft skill further than the 2 pronged skill that it is right now. This is simply a critique of what I see as an anomaly in print that honestly, shouldn't be used. This is essentially a logic argument. If Craft (swordsmith) is indeed as different from Craft (weaponsmith) as Craft (armoursmith) or Craft (bowyer) or Craft (mundane), then I think someone from Mongoose should offer something other than "We felt that swords are special and no one should forge one unless they really sacrfice skill points. This is Conan, it's about looting and pillaging."

Well sorry, but if a smith is a Commoner, and these get 3 skill points per level, then I'm afraid no one would bother picking up Craft (swordsmith) because of the immense cost of the finished product and the knowledge to create them. The Conan swords aren't lightsabers for Crom's sake- there's no difference in technology for their construction.

As for BhilJhoanz' assertion that Tewelde the Reaver will carry off Nordheimer women, think again as you read the history accounts of real life and Howard. Vikings raided as far south as Egypt, landed on North America and their descendents in Moscovia conquered all the way to Siberia. The only place left untouched by their savagery was south of the equator, and aside from Australia and South America, that's mostly ocean. So come Tewelde, this smith is ready for your corrupt southern ways of war, we spit on you and will raze your land, carry off your poor excuses for women to serve as maids for our own wenches. Come and play in our snow

 

[VincentDarlage]

Why Craft (swordsmith)?

For the craft skill, there is craft (armoursmith), craft (bowyer) and craft (weaponsmith). These skills take care of making armour, bows and weapons.

But in two instances, Mongoose has a “Craft (swordsmith)” in print. The first is in the prerequisite for the Akbtitanan Smith feat, the second is in an article by Ian Sturrock about 1-2 player groups.

Has anyone considered that this may just be a mistake in terminology? I know that I have used "swordsmith" and "weaponsmith" interchangably in my own games, website, etc. I think this is just a situation of a writer writing and using different words that are intended mean the same thing.

 

[Ravager_of_Worlds]

Sorry folks, the above "guest post" was really me. Sometimes I wish the Mongoose Forum wouldn't allow anyone to post unless they belonged to the board... sigh...

Vincent- I too, at first thought it a mistake in the Conan RPG book, but I saw it repeated in a Sons of Cimmeria PDF (which also is in Signs and Portents). Both are products under Ian's care, so I was hoping to get this clarified. Being a wordsmith (not swordsmith, wordsmith) I value getting the right word down. There is a big difference between saying Craft (weaponsmith) and Craft (swordsmith) in print. Technically, my character can never attain Akbitanan Smith as a feat because A) he's not a Shemite and B) he's got Craft (weaponsmith) pumped as much as can be (with a Skill Emphasis thrown in to boot).

If anyone is wondering how "Conan" my Nordheimer is, cross swords with this bad boy. He started at level 1 and has a Con of 20 as a Barbarian. I wanted a reason why he got so strong (also a high strength), so I picked a smith on the run. So far, I'm the tank in the group. At 2nd level, I'm also the only one who can be affected by the Massive Damage Rule (As in I have over 20 hit points, so it matters). Nordheimers rock.