MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
Wrong, 100% relevant. By not answering the question you unequivocally cede the point in question which put quit to the assertion of no gunnery training needed. Period
Confused about how Gunner skills interact with weapon mounts
- Thread starter Strategiusz
- Start date
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
My issue is this. Knowing how to aim a weapon by aiming the craft is a way different skillset than operating a turret.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
They totally could. You are right, but that wouldn't change the fact that it is two different skillsets, aiming by flying the craft and aiming by pointing a turret. One seems to be more about your ability to pilot the craft and the other seems more about the ability to use a turret.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
Yes. Two skill sets. Pilot and Gunner (Turret)
DM-2 for multiple actions.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Is it a Task Chain? First the Pilot roll and then a modified Gunner roll at a -2 penalty for multiple actions?
It still seems weird. The pilot can only fire the turrets in a forward-facing position, like the fixed mounts, or can they be fired in any direction as is normal for turrets? It seems like if the turrets are not locked facing forward, then it wouldn't be a Task Chain, since the Pilot roll would be irrelevant to the Gunner roll.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You have a six minute window, at default.
Essentially, about the same for the spinal mount.
Essentially, about the same for the spinal mount.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
This would mean that the pilot would always be making a Task Chain Pilot roll to add to the Gunner checks of his crewmates. Is that stated somewhere and I missed it?
Fire control/1 can either assist a gunner (or the Pilot in this case) by giving them +1 on their Gunner skill check or it can control the weapons itself as a Gunner-0. In the case of a single seat ship this is almost certainly going to be the better use as it allows the pilot to concentrate on just flying the ship.
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CRB p166 "Aid Gunners"This would mean that the pilot would always be making a Task Chain Pilot roll to add to the Gunner checks of his crewmates. Is that stated somewhere and I missed it?
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Thank you!
DM-2 for is for using a turret as a Pilot not for multiple actions.
Multiple action would increase the difficulty of the Pilot Action and the Gunner action. Lining up the shot is considered part of the combat (no pilot check required), but if a Pilot were to using a point of thrust to improve his own Gunner Skill check then he is required to make the Pilot check and this would be at one level more difficult and the Gunner check one level more difficult in addition to suffering the -2 for operating a turret from the Pilot seat.
I don't think that firing a weapon in a fixed mount incurs the -2 however. CRB p166 gives.
"...a pilot may fire any weapons in a single turret at DM-2 to the attack roll or weapons noted as being in fixed mounts"
The -2 seems to only apply to the first clause of the sentence. If the -2 were to apply to fixed mounts as well the sentence would read
"...a pilot may fire any weapons in a single turret or weapons noted as being in fixed mounts at DM-2 to the attack roll"
That makes Pilots firing fixed weapon mounts a bit less rubbish and I think covers the "aiming with the ship" argument. They still need to use Gunner, but at least they are at no additional penalty. Anyone who underwent Navy Basic Training will have Gunner-0 by default.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Now I am back to being confused again.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
... because flying and shooting are separate actions.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Fixed Weapons Mounts: Solomani ships may have fixed weapons mounts (as opposed to turret mounted weapons). Fixed weapons mounts allow up to two weapons to be attached per each hardpoint on the ship and do not require fire control tonnage or a turret. Weapons in fixed weapons mounts are operated by a gunner on the bridge and are subject to an attacker's DM -2 in space combat. A ship is allowed fixed weapons mounts equal to the model number of the computer installed on the ship (Model/2 computer allows two hardpoints to have fixed weapons mounts).
Alien Module Six - Solomani page forty two
Alien Module Six - Solomani page forty two
Some use cases may explain my interpretation.
1) Single crew ship targets a ship with forward fixed weapon. Aiming the ship is part of the firing action and is the only action being completed. There is no multi-action penalty. An Average Gunner-0 check is required. There is no DM-2 for a pilot firing as that only applies to turrets.
2) as 1) but the pilot is the flight leader and makes a Leadership check to attempt to provide DM+1 to other crew actions for the ships in his flight. If he also fires his own gun he is performing multiple actions in the same round and each action is increased in difficulty by 1 level (making the Gunner-0 check Difficult).
3) as 1) but the pilot elects to take the Aid Gunners action to try to improve his own chances to hit. This is multi-action and makes the Gunner-0 check Difficult. If he gets overall effect of 3+ this is enough to offset the increased difficulty. If he is a hotshot pilot this might be a good idea.
4) as 1) but the ship has a turret. The Gunner check is average, but Gunner(turret) specialism can be used. As the pilot console is not optimised for the turret control interface the pilot takes a DM-2. If he is Gunner(turret)-2 this will cancel and if he is more skilled it will even be a benefit.
5) as 1) but the ship has a second crew member in the cockpit/bridge. They can only use Gunner-0 for the fixed mount as there is no specialism for fixed weapons.
6) as 2) but the ship has a second crew member. Their Gunner-0 check and the pilot's Leadership check are not increased in difficulty since neither is conducting multiple actions.
7) as 3) but with a second crewman. Checks are not at increased difficulty as neither crew member is performing multiple actions. Gunners chance to hit is likely to be significantly enhanced even with an average pilot but they can still only use Gunner-0 as there is no fixed weapon specialty.
8) as 4) but with a second crewman. Neither check is increased in difficulty and the gunner gets to use their full Gunner(turret) skill level.
Leadership is used as an example, there are other skill checks a pilot might need to make that would result in a multi-action penalty. Whether this makes logical sense in a 6 minute space combat round is another matter.
For clarity I consider turning the ship to get a bead on an enemy to be a trivial matter not requiring a skill check and thus not constituting an action for the purposes of multi-action penalties.
I have assumed that any Gunner skill is capped at Gunner-0 as there is no fixed weapon specialty. If you rule otherwise everyone will be able to apply their full Gunner(turret) skill.
Reactions impose the normal DM-1 to all subsequent actions.
A fixed mount ship with a single crewman with Gunner-0 and high Pilot skill and above average DEX will still be highly effective.
1) Single crew ship targets a ship with forward fixed weapon. Aiming the ship is part of the firing action and is the only action being completed. There is no multi-action penalty. An Average Gunner-0 check is required. There is no DM-2 for a pilot firing as that only applies to turrets.
2) as 1) but the pilot is the flight leader and makes a Leadership check to attempt to provide DM+1 to other crew actions for the ships in his flight. If he also fires his own gun he is performing multiple actions in the same round and each action is increased in difficulty by 1 level (making the Gunner-0 check Difficult).
3) as 1) but the pilot elects to take the Aid Gunners action to try to improve his own chances to hit. This is multi-action and makes the Gunner-0 check Difficult. If he gets overall effect of 3+ this is enough to offset the increased difficulty. If he is a hotshot pilot this might be a good idea.
4) as 1) but the ship has a turret. The Gunner check is average, but Gunner(turret) specialism can be used. As the pilot console is not optimised for the turret control interface the pilot takes a DM-2. If he is Gunner(turret)-2 this will cancel and if he is more skilled it will even be a benefit.
5) as 1) but the ship has a second crew member in the cockpit/bridge. They can only use Gunner-0 for the fixed mount as there is no specialism for fixed weapons.
6) as 2) but the ship has a second crew member. Their Gunner-0 check and the pilot's Leadership check are not increased in difficulty since neither is conducting multiple actions.
7) as 3) but with a second crewman. Checks are not at increased difficulty as neither crew member is performing multiple actions. Gunners chance to hit is likely to be significantly enhanced even with an average pilot but they can still only use Gunner-0 as there is no fixed weapon specialty.
8) as 4) but with a second crewman. Neither check is increased in difficulty and the gunner gets to use their full Gunner(turret) skill level.
Leadership is used as an example, there are other skill checks a pilot might need to make that would result in a multi-action penalty. Whether this makes logical sense in a 6 minute space combat round is another matter.
For clarity I consider turning the ship to get a bead on an enemy to be a trivial matter not requiring a skill check and thus not constituting an action for the purposes of multi-action penalties.
I have assumed that any Gunner skill is capped at Gunner-0 as there is no fixed weapon specialty. If you rule otherwise everyone will be able to apply their full Gunner(turret) skill.
Reactions impose the normal DM-1 to all subsequent actions.
A fixed mount ship with a single crewman with Gunner-0 and high Pilot skill and above average DEX will still be highly effective.
