Confused about how Gunner skills interact with weapon mounts

[Condottiere]

Could be circumstantial.

Firmpointed energy weapon systems range from one to ten kilometres, so if the target is a certain size within a certain range, it could be point and click.

 

[swordtart]

Could be circumstantial.

Firmpointed energy weapon systems range from one to ten kilometres, so if the target is a certain size within a certain range, it could be point and click.

All combat is circumstantial.

For point and click you require a computer system (usually Fire Control) to be making the Gunner skill check.

A target of a beam laser at short range (and fixed mount weapons are always at short range) that is 6000 DTons would be at +11 to hit. Even with an unskilled penalty and the -2 for a pilot firing a turret were applied it would still end up as DM+5 making the hit almost automatic (3+), but you would still want to roll it for the Effect bonus on damage wouldn't you?

 

[MasterGwydion]

All combat is circumstantial.

For point and click you require a computer system (usually Fire Control) to be making the Gunner skill check.

Do you require a Fire Control system to fire a rifle or do you just point and shoot? The rifle has no more capability to aim on it's own as an A-10 does. The whole object (plane or rifle) must be turned in order to aim. Both of these are done manually and not by computer or by a Fire Control System.

A target of a beam laser at short range (and fixed mount weapons are always at short range) that is 6000 DTons would be at +11 to hit. Even with an unskilled penalty and the -2 for a pilot firing a turret were applied it would still end up as DM+5 making the hit almost automatic (3+), but you would still want to roll it for the Effect bonus on damage wouldn't you?

Isn't an A-10 point and click? If your craft is not pointed at the target, it can't be hit no matter how awesome your Gunnery roll is. Unlike how you stated above, this pointing and clicking requires no computer system. Remember, this is 1972 when this plane was first flown, my cellphone has more computing power than the whole plane.

 

[swordtart]

Do you require a Fire Control system to fire a rifle or do you just point and shoot? The rifle has no more capability to aim on it's own as an A-10 does. The whole object (plane or rifle) must be turned in order to aim. Both of these are done manually and not by computer or by a Fire Control System.

Point and click is used to refer to mouse operations, moving the cursor onto an object and then clicking.

I have never heard it used in the sense of pointing a gun and "clicking" the trigger. No-one has ever clicked a trigger.

Isn't an A-10 point and click? If your craft is not pointed at the target, it can't be hit no matter how awesome your Gunnery roll is. Unlike how you stated above, this pointing and clicking requires no computer system. Remember, this is 1972 when this plane was first flown, my cellphone has more computing power than the whole plane.

Are you suggesting that an A10 fires over iron sights at the target? I understood that it has a HUD, but maybe that is only for the complex munitions that it uses for destroying moving targets.

Does the A10 use it's cannon in an air to air role against fast moving targets such as we are discussing for space combat? Ground attack is a very different problem space.

Where did I suggest you could hit a target with fixed mounts if you were not pointing at the target? That is a pre-requisite (but pilots are also allowed to fire turrets which may engage targets elsewhere).

 

[MarcusIII]

If you need to move the craft to put the pipper on the target, that is piloting. If you need to move the gun or the platform the gun is on, then it's gunnery.

Would you have your gunner perform a planetary landing just because the only thing they need to do is put the pipper on the spot? Technically it's the same thing


I would also modify for design - i.e. if it is designed as a fixed-mount weapon or if it is a turret weapon locked forward. Even though the end result is a forward firing weapon, one is designed to be used as such (no penalty) where the other is not (full penalty).

Can a commercial pilot with no training on using the cannon be effective in combat using the cannon on an A-10? OR would he be LESS effective than a pilot trained in using that cannon?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Point and click is used to refer to mouse operations, moving the cursor onto an object and then clicking.

I have never heard it used in the sense of pointing a gun and "clicking" the trigger. No-one has ever clicked a trigger.

The trigger is a button that is depressed when you want the weapon to fire. Doesn't matter if it is a rifle or a 100GCr weapon system. Click is a slang term.

Are you suggesting that an A10 fires over iron sights at the target? I understood that it has a HUD, but maybe that is only for the complex munitions that it uses for destroying moving targets.

I am saying that iron sights or through a camera, it doesn't matter for the gatling cannon. The only way you can aim is by moving the entire craft. Obviously when it uses bombs or missiles that would be different.

Does the A10 use it's cannon in an air to air role against fast moving targets such as we are discussing for space combat? Ground attack is a very different problem space.

It has, but I can only find one reference to it ever happening. lol

A-10 Warthog Air to Air Kill - Firearms News

Did you know the one and only air to air kill scored by an A-10 Warthog was against an Iraqi helicopter?

www.firearmsnews.com

Also, if you are firing at ground targets, wouldn't you be using Gunner(ortillery) instead of any of the other Gunnery skills regardless of if they were turrets, bays, or spinals?

Where did I suggest you could hit a target with fixed mounts if you were not pointing at the target? That is a pre-requisite (but pilots are also allowed to fire turrets which may engage targets elsewhere).

Gunner (turret) doesn't seem to cover fixed mounts. A turret can be aimed independently of the craft that it is mounted on, a fixed mount cannot. They seem to be two different skills (with one skill obviously missing). How does knowing how to spin a turret around help you fire at targets for whom you have no control over aiming at? You just wait for the pilot to pass the enemy through your line of fire and click the button, no aiming at all.

 

[MarcusIII]

An A-10 pilot has Gunnery as part of his training.

A-10 training pipeline and cannon focus

The training for the cannon is integrated into a six-month course that specializes in the A-10 following undergraduate pilot training and fighter

To become a fully mission-ready A-10 pilot, trainees undergo
several months of intensive training that places significant emphasis on using the aircraft's 30mm GAU-8 Avenger cannon. Gunnery training is a central part of the program, which combines virtual reality, full-motion simulators, and live-fire exercises

A-10 training pipeline and cannon focus

The training for the cannon is integrated into a six-month course that specializes in the A-10 following undergraduate pilot training and fighter fundamentals. The curriculum specifically highlights the aircraft's primary weapon system.

Key steps in the training include:

• Virtual reality (VR) simulation: Early training heavily utilizes virtual reality and digital combat simulators. These environments provide a risk-free and cost-effective way for pilots to practice ground-attack missions and master the GAU-8 cannon's complex targeting systems.
• Full-motion simulators: Pilots progress to full-motion trainers to physically experience the aircraft's flight dynamics and learn how to manage the significant recoil and shaking of the cannon.
• Live-fire exercises: Trainees eventually perform live-fire strafing runs on gunnery ranges, such as the Grand Bay Bombing and Gunnery Range near Moody Air Force Base. During these exercises, pilots target colored parachute targets and other ground objectives to perfect their skills with the cannon.
• Experienced mentor-ship: The training involves close supervision by experienced A-10 instructors. The culture of the A-10 community emphasizes the importance of mastering the cannon, and pilots are taught to fire it in controlled, 2–4 second bursts to avoid engine flameouts from ingesting gun gases.

Progression from simulation to live fire

After mastering the simulators, it is typically around two months into the advanced A-10-specific training before a pilot fires the GAU-8 in a real aircraft. Firing the cannon for the first time is considered a major milestone in their development.

Pilots learn to:

• Compensate for recoil: They practice maneuvers to correct for the powerful recoil and its effects on the aircraft's trajectory.
• Optimize accuracy: Trainees work to refine their aim, with the GAU-8 being accurate enough to put 80% of its shots within a 40-foot circle from 4,000 feet away.
• Use the cannon in different scenarios: Pilots train to use the weapon against a variety of ground targets, a core function of the A-10's close air support mission.

 

[MasterGwydion]

An A-10 pilot has Gunnery as part of his training.

A-10 training pipeline and cannon focus

The training for the cannon is integrated into a six-month course that specializes in the A-10 following undergraduate pilot training and fighter

To become a fully mission-ready A-10 pilot, trainees undergo
several months of intensive training that places significant emphasis on using the aircraft's 30mm GAU-8 Avenger cannon. Gunnery training is a central part of the program, which combines virtual reality, full-motion simulators, and live-fire exercises

A-10 training pipeline and cannon focus

The training for the cannon is integrated into a six-month course that specializes in the A-10 following undergraduate pilot training and fighter fundamentals. The curriculum specifically highlights the aircraft's primary weapon system.

Key steps in the training include:

• Virtual reality (VR) simulation: Early training heavily utilizes virtual reality and digital combat simulators. These environments provide a risk-free and cost-effective way for pilots to practice ground-attack missions and master the GAU-8 cannon's complex targeting systems.
• Full-motion simulators: Pilots progress to full-motion trainers to physically experience the aircraft's flight dynamics and learn how to manage the significant recoil and shaking of the cannon.
• Live-fire exercises: Trainees eventually perform live-fire strafing runs on gunnery ranges, such as the Grand Bay Bombing and Gunnery Range near Moody Air Force Base. During these exercises, pilots target colored parachute targets and other ground objectives to perfect their skills with the cannon.
• Experienced mentor-ship: The training involves close supervision by experienced A-10 instructors. The culture of the A-10 community emphasizes the importance of mastering the cannon, and pilots are taught to fire it in controlled, 2–4 second bursts to avoid engine flameouts from ingesting gun gases.

Progression from simulation to live fire

After mastering the simulators, it is typically around two months into the advanced A-10-specific training before a pilot fires the GAU-8 in a real aircraft. Firing the cannon for the first time is considered a major milestone in their development.

Pilots learn to:

• Compensate for recoil: They practice maneuvers to correct for the powerful recoil and its effects on the aircraft's trajectory.
• Optimize accuracy: Trainees work to refine their aim, with the GAU-8 being accurate enough to put 80% of its shots within a 40-foot circle from 4,000 feet away.
• Use the cannon in different scenarios: Pilots train to use the weapon against a variety of ground targets, a core function of the A-10's close air support mission.

So, it seems like there are two skills that need to exist. Flyer(civilian) and Flyer(military). You can use Flyer(military) in place of Flyer(civilian) to fly the plane, but you won't know how to use your plane to aim your direct fire weapons. Merchant characters should get the civilian version of the skills while those who got their skills from military careers should get the military version of the skill. A civilian career could get the military version as a career event though, if the system was adjusted to allow for this distinction.

Turrets already use Gunner(turret), but only on spacecraft. What is the weapon skill for weapons mounted on aircraft or other vehicles?

 

[swordtart]

The trigger is a button that is depressed when you want the weapon to fire. Doesn't matter if it is a rifle or a 100GCr weapon system. Click is a slang term.

But "point and click" is jargon with a normal meaning. It is within that meaning that I referred to a computer.

I am saying that iron sights or through a camera, it doesn't matter for the gatling cannon. The only way you can aim is by moving the entire craft. Obviously when it uses bombs or missiles that would be different.

It has, but I can only find one reference to it ever happening. lol

A-10 Warthog Air to Air Kill - Firearms News

Did you know the one and only air to air kill scored by an A-10 Warthog was against an Iraqi helicopter?

www.firearmsnews.com

So not even in that case was it used against a fast moving air target.

Also, if you are firing at ground targets, wouldn't you be using Gunner(ortillery) instead of any of the other Gunnery skills regardless of if they were turrets, bays, or spinals?

Orbital bombardment is different to strafing. The clue is in the name Ortillery - Orbital Artillery.

Gunner (turret) doesn't seem to cover fixed mounts. A turret can be aimed independently of the craft that it is mounted on, a fixed mount cannot. They seem to be two different skills (with one skill obviously missing). How does knowing how to spin a turret around help you fire at targets for whom you have no control over aiming at? You just wait for the pilot to pass the enemy through your line of fire and click the button, no aiming at all.

Again, not what I said. Please read the post if you want to call it out in a comment. You need to address this criticism to the people who were saying turret specialism applied to fixed mount. I said you could could only get the Gunner 0 benefit as there was no specialism (since HG explicitly tells us firing spaceship weapons uses the Gunner skill) unless you wished to house-rule a fixed mount specialism.

 

[Condottiere]

Odds are that trained spacecraft fighter pilots will have both pilot/zero, and gunnery/zero.

In that specific case, with energy weapon systems, it's either adjacent or close range, which means dogfight mode.

So that's six second combat rounds.

At adjacent range, it should be pilot, and if you can win the dogfight, you can point the forward arc of your fighter towards the enemy, and if you can keep winning continuously, it should be counted as aiming.

But that's my opinion.

 

[MasterGwydion]

So not even in that case was it used against a fast moving air target.

Orbital bombardment is different to strafing. The clue is in the name Ortillery - Orbital Artillery.

Using a ship's weapons to fire at "stationary targets". It doesn't say only for planetary bombardment.

Again, not what I said. Please read the post if you want to call it out in a comment. You need to address this criticism to the people who were saying turret specialism applied to fixed mount. I said you could could only get the Gunner 0 benefit as there was no specialism (since HG explicitly tells us firing spaceship weapons uses the Gunner skill) unless you wished to house-rule a fixed mount specialism.

True, this was more for previous posts rather than your post. Apologies.

 

[swordtart]

Odds are that trained spacecraft fighter pilots will have both pilot/zero, and gunnery/zero.

In that specific case, with energy weapon systems, it's either adjacent or close range, which means dogfight mode.

So that's six second combat rounds.

At adjacent range, it should be pilot, and if you can win the dogfight, you can point the forward arc of your fighter towards the enemy, and if you can keep winning continuously, it should be counted as aiming.

But that's my opinion.

Navy basic training gives Gunner/0 and Pilot/0 so yes I agree most spacecraft crews can fight effectively.

This is removes the -3 unskilled penalty. If you had a hot shot Pilot-3 then they can put in a Pilot check to gain up to +3 in a skill chain. It would still be better to hand off to a second crewman who had a turret weapon where they can use their entire skill but the navy might want cheap single seat fighters to flood the skies and cheap crews to offer up their lives in the name of the greater good.

If avoiding enemy fire is important then having a good pilot is better than having a good gunner. If your fixed mount carries missiles then Gunner skill is irrelevant (the missile replaced the gun in the majority of fighters by the 70's). A fixed mount laser is going to do diddly against a large ship and even many fighters, so missiles are the most likely armament any way. 200 fighters each spamming even a large ship would test its missile defences and present a significant threat to fleet auxiliaries and minor war ships.

I am not sure aiming is a thing in space combat but even if it is, you still exercise any benefit via a Gunner check. Aiming in normal combat doesn't require any skill check it is just forgoing your action so there is no reason Pilot skill should make any difference in space combat.

 

[swordtart]

So, it seems like there are two skills that need to exist. Flyer(civilian) and Flyer(military). You can use Flyer(military) in place of Flyer(civilian) to fly the plane, but you won't know how to use your plane to aim your direct fire weapons. Merchant characters should get the civilian version of the skills while those who got their skills from military careers should get the military version of the skill. A civilian career could get the military version as a career event though, if the system was adjusted to allow for this distinction.

Turrets already use Gunner(turret), but only on spacecraft. What is the weapon skill for weapons mounted on aircraft or other vehicles?

Heavy Weapons(Vehicle)

 

[swordtart]

View attachment 6399
Using a ship's weapons to fire at "stationary targets". It doesn't say only for planetary bombardment.

That wasn't my read of it, as I was focussing on Orbital, but I guess AC-130H Spectre et al can claim that as it had some literal artillery for ground attack, so I guess there is precedent.

In that case for strafing you do have an appropriate Gunner specialism. Since Gunner(Ortillery) is not limited to turrets you can use it to augment your fixed mount guns when attacking stationary ground targets. No help against moving or non-ground targets though.

True, this was more for previous posts rather than your post. Apologies.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That wasn't my read of it, as I was focussing on Orbital, but I guess AC-130H Spectre et al can claim that as it had some literal artillery for ground attack, so I guess there is precedent.

In that case for strafing you do have an appropriate Gunner specialism. Since Gunner(Ortillery) is not limited to turrets you can use it to augment your fixed mount guns when attacking stationary ground targets. No help against moving or non-ground targets though.

Is does just say stationary though, so not even for just ground targets. Space stations usually don't move, so they may count as well. Maybe we need to say that they cannot be used against anything expending thrust? Just to clarify the rule?

 

[Sigtrygg]

I think this may be late to the party but...