Concerns About Fedayeen

[cordas]

Working out who is and isn't readied is either as difficult or as easy you want to make it. A simple ready counter can be used to make it easy...

I think the real issue is what the ready action is and whether the aim of the ready should carry over or not. I will give 2 examples.

1. Readying MGs - by readying the MG the gunner is taking down the bipod, laying the MG down and setting himself up behind it.

2. Readying a sniper rifle - the sniper takes position, and draws a bead on a specific model. Then shoots declaring which model he has taken a bead on (reading the cards I have access I would say the sniper declares his target in the shoot action not the ready action), and shoots.

Both of these actions could be seen to carry over into subsequent turns, as both involve gunners getting into position. With regards to whether his happens or not is what the relevant rules say.....
The fact that the card for the MG specificaly says the MG can only fire in its forward arc, and can fire in subsequent turns untill the model moves.
The Sniper cards however say nothing about the ready action carrying over, and surely if they did the sniper would also face the same restrictions that he could only fire in his forward arc (re-siting a Sniper rifle is no more difficult that re-siting a bipod mounted MG), it would also say the sniper can carry on getting the bonus untill he moves, the same way it does for the MG.

From my reading of these 2 rules, and the fact that it has been stated both by those with the main rule book and staff at MGP that ready actions don't carry over... unless the rule on that particular ready action state overwise.

I would take the default rule of ready actions not carrying over is to take away that "god mode" of I know his snipper has drawn a bead on my sargent... oh and as if by coincidence the sargent moves out of LOS. Some ready actions will have longer effect such as setting up a MG, this is stated specificaly for them.

 

[Paladin]

I would take the default rule of ready actions not carrying over is to take away that "god mode" of I know his snipper has drawn a bead on my sargent... oh and as if by coincidence the sargent moves out of LOS.

Then it should still be my option to risk wasting it. You want fluff for your ability to hide, then say someone in the squad spotted me and you all scattered and ran for cover. Thus my aiming followed you behind the building and I didn't move fast enough to get a bead on you. Thus I don't get the bonus when it gets to my turn.

Secondly, me forcing you to scatter/run/hide on your turn because I'm Readied is part of the realism of a sniper. You WANT to take him out or run or you die. You are denying me some of the fear my unit should inspire.

 

[cordas]

I have no problems with you wasting the action if you so choose, and whilst you might be happy with me using my god mode to move a squad out of LOS, I can see plenty of other players getting more than a bit annoyed by it.

All I have done is put up the rules the way I read them, and then put a bit of fluff in too also give a gaming reason for it. The fluff is just that, fluff.

P.S. ignore the fluff

 

[BuShips]

Do you all feel that the remaining questions regarding Ready actions for snipers and LOS have been answered sufficiently in this topic and in the similar topic of http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=27261? Here is what I understand at present, and feel that it should be close to wrapping up any issues with the Fedayeen.

First, a sniper must use a Ready action just prior to taking a shooting action, which btw forces all other models in the sniper's unit to do the same, be that a Squad or a Fire Team (which the Fedayeen cannot form into). I have a pet name for that. I call it "Friendly Suppression". :roll:

Second, although it has not been specifically addressed by Matt, I feel that the intent of the "rules as written" was to disallow a sniper from firing upon a target model that he does not have LOS to. According to some who have been correctly "trained" in reading these cards quite literally, I cannot fault them for thinking that the sniper can fire without a LOS. The card indeed states "...against any model in the Fire Zone."

It could have helped if the card would have been written as either:

"...against any model in the Fire Zone within LOS." or

"...against any model in the Fire Zone regardless of LOS."

With the card already printed, you have to then read the card with either of the two previous meanings. I just cannot bring myself to read it with the second meaning, at least until snipers have future fire-and-forget sniper ammo. :wink:

 

[mallymoocow]

the first meaning seems to me to the correct one just a shame when typos or such can lead to all manner of rule adaptaions.

I've been reading this discussion with much interest. I am assuming Dedicated sniper support teams will be a nasty unit.

On that note i imagined, could such a team use possible "counter-snipe" [as seen in Ghost Recon 2] weaponry that could reduce cover benefits or actually target models out of LOS [aslong as they are within 2" of said cover]??

Or ulternately could you say for example; a 2 man dedicated sniper team = 1 sniper, 1 spotter. The spotter allows the sniper to fire without ready actions as the spotter can inform the sniper of potential shots and the general progression of the surrounding battle [this could be too good with extra action from HQs] this could show the synchronisation between the soldiers of the elite long range team.

 

[cordas]

Or ulternately could you say for example; a 2 man dedicated sniper team = 1 sniper, 1 spotter. The spotter allows the sniper to fire without ready actions as the spotter can inform the sniper of potential shots and the general progression of the surrounding battle [this could be too good with extra action from HQs] this could show the synchronisation between the soldiers of the elite long range team.

If the sniper rifle was one shot per turn and not as a reaction, which I feel is reasonable, then I would say about 40 points for that 2 man team.

The sniper and his spotter must remain with 2" of each other at all times, apart from this they ignore the unit leaders rule.

I would say they must ready the sniper rifle in the same manner as an MG forward firing only but stays like this till moved, but this also grants them a +1 target and kill score if they are within cover (giving them +3 basic) as they are hidden as per training. As they only fire 1 shot per shoot action they have no FZ.

With a further ready action the sniper gets D6 +2 vrs size 2 or smaller targets, models in cover only gain +1 to their target score. They can shoot without this ready action, but do not gain the ready bonus.

If the sniper kills his target then the target squad gains a suppression marker.

If 1 model gets killed then the other can use the sniper rifle (its general practice that both sniper and spotter are highly trained marksmen, this is so they can swap to avoid eye strain and such) but it takes a ready action setup the rifle if it was the marksman killed and not the spotter. It then takes a ready action before being able to gain the snipe bonus.

 

[BuShips]

I'm sure that Mongoose has the dedicated sniper teams already worked up, but if we were just thowing out possibilities of how they might work, some of the following could be part of it.

As you said, you might have a sniper/spotter team. One could say that they set up just like a prone MG does, using a Ready action. One might also limit them to a forward arc only as that seems logical (note that the current MEA Fadayeen Squad has a 360-arc). One could then form the rule much as a Command Section's Lt./Radio pair by saying that the spotter must remain within 2" of the sniper, and that while there any further Ready actions after the first set-up need not be paid for.

A dedicated sniper section would be free to act without other command, as they are a separate unit on the table. Like a Command Section, there should be a cap on the number of these units that could be deployed, as they would be a nasty and long-tanged unit. :twisted:

 

[cordas]

there should be a cap on the number of these units that could be deployed, as they would be a nasty and long-tanged unit. :twisted:

absolutly, without specail scenarios I would say not under 1000 points and no more than 1 team per 1001 points on the table (so you would need to feild more than 2002 points to field 2).

 

[BuShips]

I was formulating my post, while Cordas was, it seems. While there was a few differences, there was also a few similarities. Cordas, it looks as if I had the shorter comment, but you had more to offer :lol:. I would say that as long as the spotter was there, I'd allow a shot each action. If the spotter was lost, the sniper would then have to use a Ready action. It doesn't really matter, because this is all a pipe-dream until the stats are released. :wink:

Oop, that's "long-ranged" of course.

 

[cordas]

Yeah we where rather close... Although I wouldn't give a sniper a shot each action, that would make them too powerfull IMHO. The ability to pretty much take 2 infantry squads out of command per turn (3 with a command squad) would just be obscene....

My attempt to balance this was one shot but if it kills it suppresses the squad automatically, this means they can't reaction fire, and lose 1 action next turn (unless you took out the NCO in which case the targeted squad loses both actions anyway).

 

[BuShips]

Yeah we where rather close... Although I wouldn't give a sniper a shot each action, that would make them too powerfull IMHO. The ability to pretty much take 2 infantry squads out of command per turn (3 with a command squad) would just be obscene....

My attempt to balance this was one shot but if it kills it suppresses the squad automatically, this means they can't reaction fire, and lose 1 action next turn (unless you took out the NCO in which case the targeted squad loses both actions anyway).

I'm sure that some Squads would thank a sniper for removing their command element :lol:. Your method would be nasty as well, but "nasty" defines snipers doesn't it? :wink: Shooting every action would be a bit over the top, but I was thinking of how to give a value to the observer. Maybe a shooting bonus would be the way to do it, but since we're just guessing about what is probably already been decided we should just get some patience and wait and see what they are set as. :idea:

 

[cordas]

I'm sure that some Squads would thank a sniper for removing their command element :lol:. Your method would be nasty as well, but "nasty" defines snipers doesn't it? :wink: Shooting every action would be a bit over the top, but I was thinking of how to give a value to the observer. Maybe a shooting bonus would be the way to do it, but since we're just guessing about what is probably already been decided we should just get some patience and wait and see what they are set as. :idea:

There is nasty and NASTY, mine is definatly nasty. Taking a squad out of command or taking away its special weapon and suppressing the squad to boot.

In my option the observer is only really handy when the sniper moves, as he can snipe the action after he readies. Also in the fact that he can pick up the sniper rifle if the sniper is killed. I supose to give the observer extra value you could say that as long as a sniper has an observer he can shoot when supressed (but not if doubly suppressed).

Yeah maybe MGP have already decided the rules for proper sniper teams (as different to those of snipers in squads), but maybe they haven't....

I also live in hope that MGP might see enough of my ideas and like them enough to ask me to be a play tester