[CONAN] Two Weapon Defense & Shields

[LucaCherstich]

I know this has been maybe discussed before, but I was just curious about your ideas.
What you do about this feat and shields?
(SEE BELOW, THE "special" section)

Conan 2e pag. 141 says:
TWO-WEAPON DEFENSE
(General)
When wielding a weapon in each hand, you are an expert at defensive parrying.
Prerequisites: Parry, Two-Weapon Combat.
Benefit: When you fight with two weapons, you can give up one attack at your highest attack bonus with one of the weapons to gain a parry bonus to Parry Defence for one full round after you would have made the attack.
This parry bonus is +2 if the weapon is light, or +3 if the weapon is one-handed.
Special: Two-Weapon Defence can also apply to shields if you use a shield to make shield bash attacks rather than for parrying.

The point is that, basically, everytime you use a shield in a normal way (parry) you give up a shield attack.
And this can be done even by 1st level soldiers (who can have parry + this feat already at 1st level).

So, this maybe means that:
Buckler (Light weapon) will give +2 (base) +2 (feat) = +4 Parry bonus
Targe (one-handed weapon) will give +3 (base) +3 (feat) = +6 Parry bonus
Large Shield (one-handed weapon) will give +4 (base) +3 (feat) = +7 Parry bonus

The question is: do you add or not add the bonuses?
I've heard reasonings about both solutions, and want to know your ideas.

Reasons for not adding:
- In terms of prerequisites and general feeling the feat seems clearly thought for 2-weapon fighters, not shield bearers.....

Reasons for adding:
-....shields ARE weapons in many ways!!!

-The two bonuses are not explicitely of the same type, so they could be added up.
Shields give "shield bonus" (conan 2e p.158) but the feat gives a "parry bonus" (see above) so they can be always added up.

- The Conan rpg system does not have decent feats for shield-bearers (and people bearing shields should be more diffused than 2-weapon fighters) and this feat could become one giving good advantage to shield-bearing soldiers (and Barbarians, Nomads, Borderers, Pirates).

 

[Mach5RR]

I would disagree with the concept of it stacking. In a way, a shield is the reverse of an off hand weapon. An off-hand weapon is a weapon that can be used to parry. A shield is an object designed to parry that can be used as a weapon.

So imagine your an 11th level fighter with the appropriate feats described here. You get 3 attacks with your primary weapon, and 3 attacks with your secondary weapon. Or, you can take your 3 attacks with your primary weapon, parry defensively, and still get two attacks with your off-hand weapon.

Now our same fighter with a sword and shield would normally get 3 attacks and a parry. If he chose to shield bash he would get 3 attacks with the sword and 3 attacks with the shield. But with the two-weapon defense, our fighter now gets his 3 attacks with the sword, full parry with the shield, and 2 shield bash attacks.

Two weapon defense, with two weapons means your giving up your highest attack with one weapon to parry. Two weapon defense with sword and shield, means your already using a parry and are now taking your extra attacks granted from two weapon fighting. THATS your bonus from the feat, no extra bonus to parry, but extra attacks with the shield while parrying.

 

[LucaCherstich]

So imagine your an 11th level fighter with the appropriate feats described here. You get 3 attacks with your primary weapon, and 3 attacks with your secondary weapon. Or, you can take your 3 attacks with your primary weapon, parry defensively, and still get two attacks with your off-hand weapon.

I do not know if for "the appropriate feats described here" you mean 2-Weapon Defence and Improved 2- weapon Fighting (which is not described in this topic) but, if you do not mean this second feat, your example is, simply put, WRONG in both Conan 2e Rules AND normal OGL.
A second, off-hand weapon always gives you only +one Attack at your highest bonus, whatever your level.
Conan 2e pag.204 says:
"If a combatant wields a second weapon in his off hand, that combatant can get one extra attack per round with that weapon when he takes a full attack action."
It does not says that with higher levels you get more attacks.
To get a second off-hand attack you need special feats (e.g. Improved Two-Weapon Combat).
The same happens in normal OGL 3.5, not just Conan!

Do you want a proof of this?
Check the "Improved 2-w combat feat", which is the only feats which gives you a second bonus attack (at -5).
And the "Greater 2-w combat feat" (Hyboria's Finest pag. 77) gives you a 3rd attack at -10.

So, your 11th lev soldier, if he does not have the above two feats, will make 3 attacks with primary weapon (+11/+6/+1) but only 1 attack with off-hand (+11).

GOING BACK TO 2-weapon Defence:
The prerequisites for this feat are Parry and Two-Weapon Combat.
"Improved 2-weapon Combat" is NOT a prerequisite.
This means that 2-weapon defense is basically thought to be used by somebody who has no more than 1 bonus off-hand attack.
And the shield can be used for that attack and can be used for 2-weapon Defense feat.
This is attested by Conan 2e pag.141:
"Special: Two-Weapon Defence can also apply to shields if you use a shield to make shield bash attacks rather than for parrying."
This is the problematic sentence, which can be differently interpreted according to what you want.

 

[Mach5RR]

Do you want a proof of this?
Check the "Improved 2-w combat feat", which is the only feats which gives you a second bonus attack (at -5).
And the "Greater 2-w combat feat" (Hyboria's Finest pag. 77) gives you a 3rd attack at -10.

So, your 11th lev soldier, if he does not have the above two feats, will make 3 attacks with primary weapon (+11/+6/+1) but only 1 attack with off-hand (+11).

Yeah, I skimped in not listing Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (I2WF). However, I still stand by the build (factoring in that feat). Re-read the rules for it. Along with the 2nd attack, you get an extra off-hand attack for every five points above a BAB of +6. The example even lists a 20th lvl soldier getting 4 primary attacks and 4 off-hand attacks.

So yes, an 11th level soldier can still get those 3 attacks primary/3 attacks secondary. (I'm not sure what Greater Improved Two-weapon Fighting does in regards to that. Maybe gives your combat machine yet another extra off hand attack on top of that so that our 20th lvl soldier has 4 primary/5 off-hand attacks?)

No, I2WF is not a pre-req for Two Weapon Defense. TWD is written from the perspective of using two weapons and not a weapon/shield combo. If you take TWD without I2WF, all you are doing is acquiring the ability to trade your off-hand attack for a boost to parry. Shield use already has this (albeit in reverse) with the ability to trade the ability to parry for a shield bash attack.

IF you can get more than one off-hand attack (a la I2WF), TWD grants you the ability to use those extra attacks while maintaing the improved parry. This is where shield use breaks down as it does not. Taking I2WF while using a shield only allows you to parry or attack multiple times via shield bash - not both. So, if you have the ability to take extra off-hand attacks with a shield bash, TWD allows you to trade off your top off-hand attack to get back your normal parry bonuses.

The beauty of the shield is, you don't need to waste a proficiency on TWD if you're not going to take I2WF. But if you want the full monty that a I2WF/TWD combo grants, then you're going to have to take both feats.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I'm still not very convinced, and that last phrase about shields in feat description is really problematic.
I think it's a matter of interpretation.
Or it's probably just me, I really want more feats to improve shield-bearer fighters, I feel there are not enough for them, if compared to other (less convetional) styles of fight like 2-weapon fight.

 

[Supplement Four]

I really want more feats to improve shield-bearer fighters, I feel there are not enough for them, if compared to other (less convetional) styles of fight like 2-weapon fight.

Make some up. I'd love to see what you come up with.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I made a few of them (or converted and modified from other d20 products) a few feats for shield-using and posted them in a topic here some months ago.
But I would like to have more of them!
Shield/one-handed weapon (usually spear) should be the most diffused style of fight in many cultures (from Kushites to Cimmerians) but the combination has not many useful feats in this game.

In any case, I'm still not convinced that 2-weapon defence should not be used with shields to stacks bonuses, until somebody comes up with the official interpretation from any of the Conan authors.

Here are the shield feats I already posted in this forum a few months ago.

IMPROVED SHIELD BASH
General
You can protect yourself with your shield, even if you use it to attack.
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency, Two-weapon Combat.
Benefit: When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your Parry (or Dodge vs Ranged Attacks).
Furthermore, for the sake of two weapon combat, you can consider ANY shield as a Light weapon.
Normal: Without this feat, a character that performs a shield bash loses the shield’s shield bonus to Defense.
Special: This feat can be chosen used as a Bonus Feat by Soldiers.

DAZING SHIELD SLAM
You can use your shield to daze your opponent.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, base attack bonus +4, Str 15.
Benefit: As a standard action or as the attack of a charge, you may make an attack with your shield against an opponent. If you hit you deal normal damage and, in addition, you force the target damaged by this attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your BAB rounded down + your Str modifier) in addition to dealing damage normally.
A defender who fails this saving throw is dazed for 1 round (until just before your next action).
If the save is failed by 5 points or more the defender is Stunned for 1d4 rounds.
Creatures immune to critical hits cannot be dazed.
Special: if the wielder has also the "Shield Rusher" feat, the dazing slam will trigger also a free bull rush, whether or not the victim is dazed.
This feat can be chosen used as a Bonus Feat by Soldiers.

SHIELD RUSHER
General
While you makes your shield bashes you make your opponents flying.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Improved Bull Rush, BAB +6.
Benefit: Anytime your shield bash attacks succeed you can deal damage and, in addition, you can immediately make a free Bull Rush using your attack roll for this check. Bull Rush bonuses (as the +4 from Improved Bull Rush) apply.
This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity (since you have Improve Bull Rush Feat), but you provoke AoO, as usual, if you move with your enemy.
Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance.
As usual, you may choose to move with your target if you are able to spend a Move action and move 5ft per every 5 points you beat your target.
Since this feat can even be triggered by a Shield Attack during a Full Attack, in that case you can move with your target using only your 5ft step, but this will stop any remaining attacks you were doing.
Special: This feat can be chosen used as a Bonus Feat by Soldiers.

 

[Mach5RR]

I'm still not very convinced, and that last phrase about shields in feat description is really problematic.
I think it's a matter of interpretation.
Or it's probably just me, I really want more feats to improve shield-bearer fighters, I feel there are not enough for them, if compared to other (less convetional) styles of fight like 2-weapon fight.

OK, then let's go to the description of shields on Conan 2nd ed (p. 158):
All shields can be used to make shield bash attacks if desired but a shield used in this way does not add its parry bonus to the character’s Parry Defence that round. Shields deal damage as shown on the shield table.

So, to get the parry bonus from TWD with a shield, you have to use it in a shield bash attack. But if you use it in a shield bash attack, you don't get the shields normal parry bonus. Which means TWD will actually make shield use worse if not used in conjunction with I2WF.
The TWD/I2WF just further blurs the line between weapon and shield. Off-hand weapons will have the greater advantage in doing slightly more damage, but shields will also have an advantage in adding their bonus to dodge for ranged attacks (something TWD will NOT do for you with an off-hand weapon).

 

[LucaCherstich]

Again, your arguments, even if rational, do not make my doubts disappear.
These two different views, mine and yours, of this feat comes from one main problem: this is a very badly written feat.
Prerequisites, description and "Special" note are not very well thought.
If that last sentence on shields was not there I would have never raised the problem.
But the sentence is there, and its combination with prerequisites and description raise doubts.
All the arguments, mine and yours, are not enough to convince me or you that the other one is right.
We need some official clarification...but this will never come.
Conan rpg is (SADLY) a dead line, and none of the original authors is available now to answer us in this forum, as far as I can see.