LucaCherstich
Mongoose
THE PROBLEM
I've always liked this scene in the original John Milius' Conan Movie when Conan breaks Rexor's Blade while Rexor is trying to parry: minute 1.39 of in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9ZKCEN-NAA&feature=related
We can treat it as a "Sunder scene"... but I'm not so sure about ir, maybe Rexor was kind of parrying adn things got odd for him...
I've always also liked the idea of shields smashed by Axes and heavy Blades...
http://www.google.it/imgres?q=rhomphaia&um=1&hl=it&sa=N&biw=1920&bih=955&tbm=isch&tbnid=FV13V5eL6-IfYM:&imgrefurl=http://deadliestforums.freesmfhosting.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D44.0&docid=oz9CluHDEmgTAM&imgurl=http://ranistorum.midhedava.net/site_eng/Images/falx_02.jpg&w=446&h=341&ei=dnU6T9GZOZD54QTH8LzlCg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1252&vpy=150&dur=1719&hovh=196&hovw=257&tx=164&ty=99&sig=116711492153440714417&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=184&start=0&ndsp=50&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0
HOWEVER, can we really replicate these scenes with the "Sunder" mechanics?
I think not, or at least I do not think "Sunder" cover all of the possibilities of breaking Weapons and Shields in a combat.
"Sundering" is an action deliberatively chosen by the attacker.
However, quite often it could happen that a parrying weapon gets broken or damaged by chance since in a real combat weapons & shields used to parry suffer a lot of stress.
If you look to many ancient swords which were frequently used in combat you will notice many notches (results of parrying heavy weapons, like axes) and attempts of repairing.
CONAN 2E solution
The "weapon breakage" optional rule in CONAN RPG 2E, pag. 174 is a good solution: parry works even if the exact Parry number is taken, but a sundering must be suffered by the parrying weapon.
My personal take is that shields also suffer the same fate.
If the victim has both shield & weapon the shield suffers it, not the weapon.
This is an interesting solution.
However, deliberate attempts at "Sundering" remain the most common way of breaking weapons while the casual breakage of weapon & shields is still too rare.
EXAMPLE:
Think about somebody trying to parry with a wicker shield the attacks of a bardiche.
With the actual set of rules there is only a very small chance to break the wicker shield (the bardiche attacker must roll EXACTLY the Parry defence number).
However, in a real combat after a couple of casual parries the wicker shield in the above example should be useless.
My proposal for solve this situation is the following:
A NEW APPROACH:
WEAPON BREAKAGE (v.2)
1) Parrying with WEAPON: An attack which is equal to the Parry defence triggers a Sunder vs the parrying weapon/shield
2) Parrying with SHIELD: A Sunder is triggered if the attack rolls misses the Parry Defence by an amount which is EQUAL to the Shield parry bonus
Example:
Lamech is a a 5th level Soldier with a Parry Defence of 19 including= 10 + 3 (Class Parry bonus) + 2 (Str bonus) + 4 (Large Shield bonus)
The Sundering vs the Shield is triggered by attacking results of 16,17,18 or 19 (the four numbers which were essential in parrying with the shield).
This means that all the kinds of Large Shield will suffer many attempts of sundering...HOWEVER, a wooden Large Shield (hd 6, hp 10) will break less frequently than a Wicker Large Shield (maybe hd 2, hp 4??).
NOTES: with this set of rules Shields will break more often than Weapons since Shields give a bonus to Parry, but weapons do not give anything to parry.
ADDENDUM
(ONLY FOR THOSE WHO LIKE TO MIX CONAN RPG & CODEX MARTIALIS).
Elsewhere I've widely discussed with S4 and Galloglaich my position on the use of weapon "triple stats" from Galloglaich's Codex Martialis.
To keep it simple let say that every weapon gives a different bonus to Attack and Parry.
This is my idea on how to keep things balanced:
You will notice that in my adaptation of Triple stats to Conan Rules I've tried to keep things balanced, a bonus is added to every entry: Attack, Parry and Dodge.
The triple stats gives a whole new level of granularity to Combat.
With this system Weapons give a Parry Bonus like Shields: so we can try to improve my Weapon Breakage rules.
WEAPON BREAKAGE (v.2a = Conan & Codex' Triple stats)
1) Parrying with WEAPON or a SHIELD: A Sunder is triggered if the attack rolls misses the Parry Defence by an amount which is EQUAL to the Shield parry bonus
2) In case one is parrying with both a Weapon AND a Shield, or with two weapons, the sundering threats will involve first the Shield/Off-hand weapon and only then the Main Weapon.
EXAMPLE:
Lamech, the 5th level soldier of the previous example, has the following equipment:
Scimitar has Parry +2
Large Shield has parry +4
So his Parry Defence will be 21 including= 10 + 3 (Class Parry bonus) + 2 (Str bonus) + 4 (Large Shield bonus) +2 (Scimitar Parry bonus)
The Sundering vs the Shield is triggered by attacking results of 18, 19, 20 or 21 (the four numbers which were essential in parrying with the shield).
The Sundering vs the Scimitar is triggered by attacking results of 16 or 17 (the two numbers which were essential in parrying with the shield).
BALANCE RULE:
In my quote box above I've added Dex TWICE to Dodge to balance Dodge & Parry.
The reason was to balance Parry (which received a Parry weapon bonus) with Dodge (which did not receive any bonus)
HOWEVER, using my new Breakage rules is risky for weapons.
To balance things my proposal is to add Dex to Dodge only once and not twice.
This has two consequences:
- Parry becomes more effective than Dodging (due to the weapon Parry Bonus) but risky for your weapons/shield (which risk to be broken)
- Dodge becomes less effective than Parrying, but safer for your weapons.
I've always liked this scene in the original John Milius' Conan Movie when Conan breaks Rexor's Blade while Rexor is trying to parry: minute 1.39 of in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9ZKCEN-NAA&feature=related
We can treat it as a "Sunder scene"... but I'm not so sure about ir, maybe Rexor was kind of parrying adn things got odd for him...
I've always also liked the idea of shields smashed by Axes and heavy Blades...
http://www.google.it/imgres?q=rhomphaia&um=1&hl=it&sa=N&biw=1920&bih=955&tbm=isch&tbnid=FV13V5eL6-IfYM:&imgrefurl=http://deadliestforums.freesmfhosting.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D44.0&docid=oz9CluHDEmgTAM&imgurl=http://ranistorum.midhedava.net/site_eng/Images/falx_02.jpg&w=446&h=341&ei=dnU6T9GZOZD54QTH8LzlCg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1252&vpy=150&dur=1719&hovh=196&hovw=257&tx=164&ty=99&sig=116711492153440714417&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=184&start=0&ndsp=50&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0
HOWEVER, can we really replicate these scenes with the "Sunder" mechanics?
I think not, or at least I do not think "Sunder" cover all of the possibilities of breaking Weapons and Shields in a combat.
"Sundering" is an action deliberatively chosen by the attacker.
However, quite often it could happen that a parrying weapon gets broken or damaged by chance since in a real combat weapons & shields used to parry suffer a lot of stress.
If you look to many ancient swords which were frequently used in combat you will notice many notches (results of parrying heavy weapons, like axes) and attempts of repairing.
CONAN 2E solution
The "weapon breakage" optional rule in CONAN RPG 2E, pag. 174 is a good solution: parry works even if the exact Parry number is taken, but a sundering must be suffered by the parrying weapon.
My personal take is that shields also suffer the same fate.
If the victim has both shield & weapon the shield suffers it, not the weapon.
This is an interesting solution.
However, deliberate attempts at "Sundering" remain the most common way of breaking weapons while the casual breakage of weapon & shields is still too rare.
EXAMPLE:
Think about somebody trying to parry with a wicker shield the attacks of a bardiche.
With the actual set of rules there is only a very small chance to break the wicker shield (the bardiche attacker must roll EXACTLY the Parry defence number).
However, in a real combat after a couple of casual parries the wicker shield in the above example should be useless.
My proposal for solve this situation is the following:
A NEW APPROACH:
WEAPON BREAKAGE (v.2)
1) Parrying with WEAPON: An attack which is equal to the Parry defence triggers a Sunder vs the parrying weapon/shield
2) Parrying with SHIELD: A Sunder is triggered if the attack rolls misses the Parry Defence by an amount which is EQUAL to the Shield parry bonus
Example:
Lamech is a a 5th level Soldier with a Parry Defence of 19 including= 10 + 3 (Class Parry bonus) + 2 (Str bonus) + 4 (Large Shield bonus)
The Sundering vs the Shield is triggered by attacking results of 16,17,18 or 19 (the four numbers which were essential in parrying with the shield).
This means that all the kinds of Large Shield will suffer many attempts of sundering...HOWEVER, a wooden Large Shield (hd 6, hp 10) will break less frequently than a Wicker Large Shield (maybe hd 2, hp 4??).
NOTES: with this set of rules Shields will break more often than Weapons since Shields give a bonus to Parry, but weapons do not give anything to parry.
ADDENDUM
(ONLY FOR THOSE WHO LIKE TO MIX CONAN RPG & CODEX MARTIALIS).
Elsewhere I've widely discussed with S4 and Galloglaich my position on the use of weapon "triple stats" from Galloglaich's Codex Martialis.
To keep it simple let say that every weapon gives a different bonus to Attack and Parry.
This is my idea on how to keep things balanced:
You will notice that in my adaptation of Triple stats to Conan Rules I've tried to keep things balanced, a bonus is added to every entry: Attack, Parry and Dodge.
The triple stats gives a whole new level of granularity to Combat.
With this system Weapons give a Parry Bonus like Shields: so we can try to improve my Weapon Breakage rules.
WEAPON BREAKAGE (v.2a = Conan & Codex' Triple stats)
1) Parrying with WEAPON or a SHIELD: A Sunder is triggered if the attack rolls misses the Parry Defence by an amount which is EQUAL to the Shield parry bonus
2) In case one is parrying with both a Weapon AND a Shield, or with two weapons, the sundering threats will involve first the Shield/Off-hand weapon and only then the Main Weapon.
EXAMPLE:
Lamech, the 5th level soldier of the previous example, has the following equipment:
Scimitar has Parry +2
Large Shield has parry +4
So his Parry Defence will be 21 including= 10 + 3 (Class Parry bonus) + 2 (Str bonus) + 4 (Large Shield bonus) +2 (Scimitar Parry bonus)
The Sundering vs the Shield is triggered by attacking results of 18, 19, 20 or 21 (the four numbers which were essential in parrying with the shield).
The Sundering vs the Scimitar is triggered by attacking results of 16 or 17 (the two numbers which were essential in parrying with the shield).
BALANCE RULE:
In my quote box above I've added Dex TWICE to Dodge to balance Dodge & Parry.
The reason was to balance Parry (which received a Parry weapon bonus) with Dodge (which did not receive any bonus)
HOWEVER, using my new Breakage rules is risky for weapons.
To balance things my proposal is to add Dex to Dodge only once and not twice.
This has two consequences:
- Parry becomes more effective than Dodging (due to the weapon Parry Bonus) but risky for your weapons/shield (which risk to be broken)
- Dodge becomes less effective than Parrying, but safer for your weapons.
