[CONAN] Interesting Hit Point model

[Supplement Four]

Looking through Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might tonight, I see an interesting hit point model.

He divides Hit Points into Grace and Health. Losing Grace points means you're using up your luck, getting close to operating past your skill level, taking on fatigue, and intangible damage like that. Damage to Health points means you've taken a physical wound.

Your Health equals your CON score plus CON modifier plus your level, with a minumum of 1.

Your Grace points are everything else.

Thus, a 4th level Soldier with 40 hit points and a CON 15 would have 27 hit points of Health and 13 of Grace.

Health = 15 +2 HP per level due to CON + level = 15 + 8 + 4 = 27

Grace = what's left = 13.

The book has Grace points healing at 1 point per minute rested (they're basically combat fatigue!). Health heals at 1 point per day of rest.

Interesting.

When a character is damaged, Grace points are removed first.

This system makes low level characters much more able to withstand damage and stick around for a while. Consider: A 1st level Barbarian with CON 16 would have hit points equal to 1d10* + 16 + 3 + 1 = 1d10 + 20.

*If you still gave max hit points at 1st level, this character's starting hit points would be 30 hp. Wow. Rolling, he would average 25 hit points.

I think this is a neat system worth considering in a game.

This Barbarian, at 1st level, at 25 hit points, would have Health = 20 and Grace = 5 (or whatever was rolled on the 1d10).

This sure would make 1st level characters a little more viable to play, wouldn't it? And still, the Conan game, especially with the Massive Damage rule at 20+ hit points of damage, still remains quite gritty.

Worth thinking about.

 

[Supplement Four]

Further, a character doesn't necessarily go unconscious when he reaches -1 hp, and he may not be dead at -10 hp.

A character is Disabled when he reaches 0 hit point to an amount equal to the character's CON modifier expressed as a negative number. Thus, our Barbarian above would be considered conscious but Disabled in a range of 0 to -3 HP.

At -4 HP, he would drop, unconscious or conscious but unable to move, dying. He will die at a number of HP equal to his CON score expressed as a negative number. Thus, our Barbarian dies at -16 HP.

Dude! I like it!

 

[Supplement Four]

Game effects: More work for the GM in beefing up NPC hit points! (Maybe we can find a short cut?).

First level characters have a better survival chance, especially in this very hard, very dangerous game.

Our 25 hp Barbarian is recuded to 2 hit points, he rests for 5 minutes get all of his Grace back, which would put him at 7 HP. He's still got to heal 18 hit points of real wound damage!

Sounds realistic enough.

 

[Spectator]

I dig it!!!

 

[Supplement Four]

I like it, too, but I don't think I'll use it. I think, with Conan, being more generous with the Fate Points is probably a better way to go, leaving the game RAW.

Another neat thing from that book is called "Taking A Breather". If you can get out of combat for a moment, and "take a breather", you can heal up to your level in Hit Points. If using the method above, these would be Grace points.

 

[rabindranath72]

Too complex for my tastes. Either you accept the abstract nature of hit points, and "roll with it" in the game with appropriate descriptions; or just change model entirely. As usual, mixed grounds don't really work.

 

[rabindranath72]

Also, the system is strange, at least if I understood what you wrote:

The same character as before, CON 15. Let's assume he rolls maximum hit points at each level.

1st level: 10+2=12. In theory, his Health should be 15+2+1=18, but since it's larger than the total, it's just 1. So, at 1st level Health=1, Grace=11

2nd level: 10+2+10+2=24. His Health should be 15+4+2=21. So, at 2nd level Health=21, Grace=3

Clearly something is wrong here.

 

[Supplement Four]

The same character as before, CON 15. Let's assume he rolls maximum hit points at each level.

1st level: 10+2=12. In theory, his Health should be 15+2+1=18, but since it's larger than the total, it's just 1. So, at 1st level Health=1, Grace=11

2nd level: 10+2+10+2=24. His Health should be 15+4+2=21. So, at 2nd level Health=21, Grace=3

Clearly something is wrong here.

If you roll max both times....

1st level, Hit Points are: 15 + 2 +1 + 10 = 28

2nd level, Hit Points are: 15 + 4+ 2 + 20 = 41

On both of these, the Grace points are the roll. Since you rolled 10 each time....

1st level, Health is 18 and Grace is 10

2nd level, Health is 21 and Grace is 20.

That's rolling max.

 

[rabindranath72]

Ah, so you DON'T roll hit points normally at all. I thought it was a method to split the NORMAL hit points. It makes sense, then. Still, it seems too complex.

 

[Supplement Four]

Ah, so you DON'T roll hit points normally at all. I thought it was a method to split the NORMAL hit points. It makes sense, then. Still, it seems too complex.

You do roll hit points normally. I just maxed them out because you did so in your example.

Normal 1st level Barbarian with CON 15 is: 10 + 2 = 12

Alternate System is: 15 + 2 +1 + 1d10 = 18 + 1d10



Normal 2nd level Barbarian is: 12 + 2 + 1d10 = 14 + 1d10

Alternate System is: 15 + 4+ 2 + 2d10 = 21 + 2d10





I'm not sure why you think it's so complicated. All it is, is: Normal Hit points + CON + Level. 1st level isn't maxed out on the throw--you roll the 1d10 at 1st.

Normally you get Hit Die plus CON mod, right?

Now add in your character level plus your CON score, and you've got it.

 

[rabindranath72]

You have to keep track of essentially two pools of points. Also, how does damage type interact with these two pools? If you take a poison, it seems reasonable that only Health is touched. If you are fatigued, perhaps only Grace is touched. Everything becomes more complex (which is added to the tons of fiddly bits already there.)

 

[Supplement Four]

You have to keep track of essentially two pools of points. Also, how does damage type interact with these two pools? If you take a poison, it seems reasonable that only Health is touched. If you are fatigued, perhaps only Grace is touched. Everything becomes more complex (which is added to the tons of fiddly bits already there.)

No, you don't have to keep track of two different sets of points. You only keep track of one.

It just separates your actual "Health" from your fatigue, luck, expertise, god's grace, and whatnot.

Example. You are a 2nd level Barbarain with CON 15 and 28 hit points. Since your Health is 15 + 2 + 4 = 21, then everything else is Grace (7 points).

Grace is always just the points you roll on the dice, but you don't have to keep track of what you roll each level because your Health is equal to CON score + level + (CON mod x level). Anything more than that will be your Grace.

So, if the 2nd level Barbarian gets hit with 17 points of damage, he goes from 28 to 11 hit points.

What does that tell us? He's taken a 10 point real wound. We dont' need to know that--it's for color purposes, GM description, and what not.

Mechanically, he'll get his Grace points back after resting a short while, so he'll go from 11 to 18 points very quickly. The other 10 points (the real wound) will have to heal normally, using the normal rules.

I don't think its fiddly or complicated at all.

The Hit Die throw represents Grace Points.

Health is represented by CON + Level + (CON Mod x Level).

 

[thelevitator]

This sounds like the Vitality/Wounds system option for D&D 3.5. We used the V/W system in our S&S adaptation of our 3.5 game, and it was wildly popular!

To make the system even grittier, I also created Battle Fatigue. Essentially, as you lost Wound Points, you would take penalties to your STR & DEX. At 75% of your WP, it's -1, at 50% of your WP, it's -2, and at 25% of your WP, it's -4.

Those two options made our 3.5 game much grittier and dangerous. The one thing that has always bugged me about HP systems is that an 80 HP character can take 79 points of damage and still function as if nothing has happened so far. I do understand that HP are an abstraction and all of that, but they are called HIT Points, and you can HEAL from them, so I've always struggled with that part of the system. That said, I do enjoy HP damage systems, but I prefer a wound track system, where cumulative damage wears down the fighter, or at least makes him more vulnerable to a killing blow. One of the greatest improvements that I think Conan did to the 3.5 system is the Massive Damage rule. Very cool!

 

[rabindranath72]

Ok, thanks, now I understand. So you only need to keep track of the amount of Grace you have for the purpose of recovery.
I have been doing something similar with my Classic/AD&D games, i.e. after each combat you can recover 1HD+level worth of hit points as simply recovering from fatigue, stress etc.

 

[Supplement Four]

Ok, thanks, now I understand. So you only need to keep track of the amount of Grace you have for the purpose of recovery.

You don't have to "keep" track of it. It's easy to figure.

If you've got 35 hit points, CON 15 (+2), and are 3rd level, then you know automatically that your Health is 15 + 6 + 3 = 24.

The rest is your Grace.

So, Grace would be 11 points.

 

[Spectator]

You guys are way too smart for me w/ the math.
Nonetheless its a great concept, I guess I'd just do something simpler, like your natch HP is Starting HP, and all after is "Grace." So an 8th level fighter, NO CON bonus, but who lucked out and got eight 10s for Hits totalling 80HPs, would have natch HP of 10 and 70 of Grace HPs.

That way the fighter could take 70HPs of damage and then in a few hours time be ready to ass-kick again, without a scratch.

 

[rabindranath72]

Ok, thanks, now I understand. So you only need to keep track of the amount of Grace you have for the purpose of recovery.

You don't have to "keep" track of it. It's easy to figure.

If you've got 35 hit points, CON 15 (+2), and are 3rd level, then you know automatically that your Health is 15 + 6 + 3 = 24.

The rest is your Grace.

So, Grace would be 11 points.

Well, Health is the sum of two numbers. However you choose to calculate the addends, you MUST know one of them to know the other.
Either you re-calculate it on the fly, or write it somewhere else, in any case it's one more piece of information to take into account.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, Health is the sum of two numbers. However you choose to calculate the addends, you MUST know one of them to know the other.
Either you re-calculate it on the fly, or write it somewhere else, in any case it's one more piece of information to take into account.

If you know CON, level, and total HP, which you will know with a character, you'll know Health and Grace.

If you need to know Grace points, you simply realculate it on the fly. It takes a milisecond.

CON + Level + (CON mod x level) = Health.

All other HP = Grace.

Pretty simple.