Computers, Software and Tech Levels

[hdan]

Has anyone played the rules such that a computer cannot run software that is a higher tech level than the computer?

To a degree, I think it's completely defensible, since the Tech Level chart spells out at least one pretty radical technology changes in computers - synaptic computers are possible at TL-11.

So to me it makes sense that (at least) pre TL-11 computers can't run TL-11+ software. And to generalize, I suggest that no computer can run software higher tech than it is.

This also implies that pre-synaptic hardware can't run Expert or Intelligent Interface programs.

Or am I being too analytical?

 

[F33D]

Yes, I do. However, just because a certain "model" of a computer listed becomes available at TL x doesn't mean you can't get an equivalent model at the proper TL for less money...

 

[phavoc]

I suppose it would depend upon what you are running. But as a general rule of thumb you are probably fine.

Exceptions might be say running a library program. In that case, generally speaking, a TL11 computer should be able to run the program compiled by a TL15 system. But you shouldn't have a TL15 ship targeting program for your weapons running on a TL11 system (though there's a TL11 equivalent).

In the generic Traveller universe (a screw is a screw is a screw), you could also reasonably argue that you COULD run a more sophisticated program on an older computer, but it might run slower, and in some instances that delay could render the application useless.

 

[hdan]

I suppose it would depend upon what you are running. But as a general rule of thumb you are probably fine.

Specifically, I'm referring to the software table's "TL" column. A limit to what TL can create it, or run it?

 

[F33D]

I suppose it would depend upon what you are running. But as a general rule of thumb you are probably fine.

Specifically, I'm referring to the software table's "TL" column. A limit to what TL can create it, or run it?

Like a Jump n program? Yes, that would make sense.

 

[rust]

Has anyone played the rules such that a computer cannot run software that is a higher tech level than the computer?

In my settings it depends on the computer's operating system,
software written for a higher technology operating system will
not run on a computer with a lower technology operating sys-
tem. If the difference is only one technology level, there are so-
me ways to make the software run more slowly, but a differen-
ce of two or more technology levels makes it necessary to re-
write the software for the new operating system.

 

[phavoc]

I suppose it would depend upon what you are running. But as a general rule of thumb you are probably fine.

Specifically, I'm referring to the software table's "TL" column. A limit to what TL can create it, or run it?

You could still handle that one of two ways. It takes a TL15 computer a few hours to plot a J6, whereas a TL13 computer might take a few days, and a TL11 could take weeks.

The computer rules are one where I think there can be some interpretation. Oppenheimer crunched his nuke numbers on a chalk board and farmed out the work to other people as well. An iphone5 has more computing power than a 70s mainframe, etc. But an iphone5 can't do what a mainframe can do (or at least not as efficiently) even though its got more brute strength processing power. So long as the speed doesn't affect the outcome, I'd say yes - so long as it makes sense.

 

[F33D]

You could still handle that one of two ways. It takes a TL15 computer a few hours to plot a J6, whereas a TL13 computer might take a few days, and a TL11 could take weeks.

That's only for the initial calc's. The s/w also has to run the jump drive. So, that approach wouldn't work as it is real time processing at that point...

 

[Nathan Brazil]

If one speaks about functionality, I have been involved in software enough to see that once someone has designed new software, that it often (but not always) could be written on lesser hardware platforms, with difficulty. And later the same functionality is made more efficient taking less memory, space and so on. As such, I treat software TL listed as its "optimum" configuration, the same as computers are in the core rules. I would allow software to be designed at 1 TL lower for additional Space and increased cost. Should time be a factor, I would move solution time up the time scale to keep it all easy peasy using the existing rules.

Concerning the comments on Jump programs. Isn't Jump Space a series of different dimensions or universes, such that the programs might not be functional between each other? The commentary concerning creation of the ansible by the Ancients in Secrets of the Ancients bears out that Jump Space is a series of different dimensions or universes. Just asking.

 

[F33D]

Concerning the comments on Jump programs. Isn't Jump Space a series of different dimensions or universes, such that the programs might not be functional between each other? The commentary concerning creation of the ansible by the Ancients in Secrets of the Ancients bears out that Jump Space is a series of different dimensions or universes. Just asking.

That's my understanding of it. Therefore, a J6 pgm is really 6 "routines" bundled in one package.

 

[phavoc]

Concerning the comments on Jump programs. Isn't Jump Space a series of different dimensions or universes, such that the programs might not be functional between each other? The commentary concerning creation of the ansible by the Ancients in Secrets of the Ancients bears out that Jump Space is a series of different dimensions or universes. Just asking.

Yes, jump space is a separate dimension, though it still has a connection to realspace. Jump programs have to calculate the movement of the known terrestial objects along your flight path between star systems, as well as coordinates of where you are to emerge in your target system. So longer jumps can require more calculations.

That's only for the initial calc's. The s/w also has to run the jump drive. So, that approach wouldn't work as it is real time processing at that point...

I'm not sure that would be true. Granted it could send the initiation signal to the jump drive to begin doing its thing, but the actual operation of the jump drive would be controlled by the software contained on the drive itself. Much like the power plant would be self-contained, etc. No central brain required for operation, just coordination.

 

[F33D]

That's only for the initial calc's. The s/w also has to run the jump drive. So, that approach wouldn't work as it is real time processing at that point...

I'm not sure that would be true. Granted it could send the initiation signal to the jump drive to begin doing its thing, but the actual operation of the jump drive would be controlled by the software contained on the drive itself. Much like the power plant would be self-contained, etc. No central brain required for operation, just coordination.

I'm just going by the MgT description of Jump s/w. "Allows Jumps of up to the specified number. Incorporates astrogation software and Jump engine management."

 

[2330ADUSA1]

Look in the current work software first runs on a specific OS like: Windows, Linux, Unix, Solaris, MAC, and etc. Then it further needs a specific release level of that same OS or maybe even a range of release levels. Then too, some software requires certain HW (Hardware) types like a specific Processor type or etc, to work or work well. There are a whole number of issues that need to be dealt with, and most likely opperational HW needs to have the Kernal patched to certain required levels for different sub programs to make everything work correctly.

Next through in TL and that adds a whole new element to everything. Honestly when the game was being designed way back when Marc and crew it is clear they are not Sys Admins, Network Techs, DBAs, or Programmers and have no idea how the whole IT world actually truely works. That being said, we must try to make sense of this and try to build in realistic scope of how this might or should actually work.

Thus we can NOT follow the written rules as they do not reflect the way all that stuff works for real.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Traveller computers use the RPG OS. Just like movies use the Hollywood OS.

 

[rust]

Traveller computers use the RPG OS. Just like movies use the Hollywood OS.

And this makes Traveller computers just as plausible
as Hollywood movies. :wink:

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I'm just going by the MgT description of Jump s/w. "Allows Jumps of up to the specified number. Incorporates astrogation software and Jump engine management."

And... it all comes down to a roll 8+ to succeed anyway. Are the crew members all computer programmers of their own ship software? Or are they all end-users? Or managers of end-users?

The Traveller computers just need to work without the crew knowing intimately how they work. One crew member with computer 2 skill is good enough for some data failure drama.

But please don't make all the crew members computer physicists with computer 8 skill and INT 10 and EDU 10 and still fail 25% of the time at saving to a floppy.

 

[rust]

Honestly when the game was being designed way back when Marc and crew it is clear they are not Sys Admins, Network Techs, DBAs, or Programmers and have no idea how the whole IT world actually truely works.

This reminded me of the German Perry Rhodan series, which began to
be published about a decade before Traveller came out. In this science
fiction series the incredibly advanced humanoid aliens the heroes en-
countered had a technology which would be about TL 20 in Traveller -
but their computers were programmed and delivered their output with
punched tape ... :shock:

 

[F33D]

Honestly when the game was being designed way back when Marc and crew it is clear they are not Sys Admins, Network Techs, DBAs, or Programmers and have no idea how the whole IT world actually truely works.

This reminded me of the German Perry Rhodan series, which began to
be published about a decade before Traveller came out. In this science
fiction series the incredibly advanced humanoid aliens the heroes en-
countered had a technology which would be about TL 20 in Traveller -
but their computers were programmed and delivered their output with
punched tape ... :shock:

Remember the Lensmen series by Smith? They were still using slide rulers. :lol:

http://www.taswegian.com/TwoHeaded/UniVirtual/UniVirtual.html

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

This reminded me of the German Perry Rhodan series, which began to
be published about a decade before Traveller came out. In this science
fiction series the incredibly advanced humanoid aliens the heroes en-
countered had a technology which would be about TL 20 in Traveller -
but their computers were programmed and delivered their output with
punched tape ... :shock:

We need to preserve our archaic computer technologies. Otherwise we run the risk of butterfly-effecting away the Traveller Universe entirely.

 

[F33D]

I'm just going by the MgT description of Jump s/w. "Allows Jumps of up to the specified number. Incorporates astrogation software and Jump engine management."

And... it all comes down to a roll 8+ to succeed anyway. Are the crew members all computer programmers of their own ship software? Or are they all end-users? Or managers of end-users?

The Traveller computers just need to work without the crew knowing intimately how they work. One crew member with computer 2 skill is good enough for some data failure drama.

But please don't make all the crew members computer physicists with computer 8 skill and INT 10 and EDU 10 and still fail 25% of the time at saving to a floppy.

I really don't use the skill "computer" in my game unless a player wants to actually write new programs. The higher the TL the computer is, the easier to use. >TL 9 you need no skill called "computer" unless you are a coder.