Combat question. Please help if you know the system.

[cerebro]

I have been playing all kinds of rpgs for the last 14 years. Champions, D&D (second, third 3.5 and 4), Whitewolf ,starwars saga, Mutants & Masterminds, etc. I need some clarifications with runequest which i like a lot.

Closing and getting away:

Lets say i have a wolf charging (bite = touch) a human with a long sword (long). The wolf would have to stop at a long distance?, and take an attack and in the next round try to approach the human?. Don't take into account CM yet.

Lets say the same scenario. But the human miss the attack,the wolf "blocks",gaining a CM. He uses the CM to close the distance. Is this automatic?does the human get an evade roll vs the wolf? Does this cost the human a Combat action?.

Lets say now that the wolf just uses a regular Combat action to close. This would allowed and attack from the human or a roll to keep the distance. Does keeping the distance requires a Combat action from the human?.

 

[Mikko Leho]

Lets say i have a wolf charging (bite = touch) a human with a long sword (long). The wolf would have to stop at a long distance?, and take an attack and in the next round try to approach the human?. Don't take into account CM yet.

No, the defender has two options: either to stand firm or try to evade. When the defender stands firm, he or she can attack the charger first if equipped with a longer reach weapon. The charger cannot parry or evade this attack as the Charge allows only single Combat Action for all participants. If the charger survives the defender's attack, then it can attack in turn with no worries about parry as the defender has already spend their CA.

Lets say the same scenario. But the human miss the attack,the wolf "blocks",gaining a CM. He uses the CM to close the distance. Is this automatic?does the human get an evade roll vs the wolf? Does this cost the human a Combat action?.

The Combat Maneuvre Change Range does not require additional Combat Action and the opponent cannot resist it.

Lets say now that the wolf just uses a regular Combat action to close. This would allowed and attack from the human or a roll to keep the distance. Does keeping the distance requires a Combat action from the human?.

Yes, either attacking and keeping distance will require Combat Action.

 

[Deleriad]

The wolf has three options.

It can charge. Charging is an attack on the run but is a bit confusing if you read straight from the book. Basically the attacker commits to an all or nothing attack. It can't defend itself. The target of a charge must choose to either Evade or to counter-attack. The target can't parry. If the target chooses to counter-attack then its longsword has greater reach so the man attacks the wolf first. Remember the wolf can't defend itself. If the man misses or doesn't kill the wolf then it can make its attack and now the man can't defend himself.

Animals can also make pounce attacks. That's a leaping attack on the run normally done from ambush. A particularly mad wolf could attempt as part of a charge (the wolf runs towards the man and leaps at him). If the pounce attack is not successfully evaded then the man gets knocked down and the wolf ends up on top of him.

The third option is a more cautious approach. The man's longsword out-reaches the wolf so it's best tactic is to stay out of reach. A stand-off is likely to ensue. If the wolf moves into reach then it has to spend a CA to do so and now the man probably has a CA advantage this round. This is why animals like wolves hunt in packs. Still if it really has to press the attack then, assuming they both have 3 CAs this is what happens.

1. Wolf moves into combat range (1 CA)
2 Man attacks (1CA) wolf evades (1 CA)
3 Wolf tries change range CA, man counter-attacks or opposes with Evade. (1 CA).
4 Man has extra CA so can freely change range or attack with hilt of sword etc.
Basically things end badly this round but next round, if it is still alive, the wolf no longer has to worry about losing a CA on moving.

On the other hand, if the man missed his attack and wolf made its evade, it could choose the Change Range Combat Man and life is happier because the CM can't be responded to; it happens automatically.

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

The target of a charge must choose to either Evade or to counter-attack. The target can't parry.

You sure about that last bit?

The rules (p 90 of the Core Rulebook) say that the defender has two options - evade of "stand firm". They then say "standing firm allows the recipient the opportunity to strike at the charging opponent but he will potentially suffer the brunt of the charge attack ..." They do not explicitly state that the defender cannot parry.

The increased damage modifier from a charge means that a parry is less likely to block all damage - and in the case of a mounted charge there may well be an attack from the mount as well - but I don't see a definitive reason to disallow a parry completely.

 

[Deleriad]

The target of a charge must choose to either Evade or to counter-attack. The target can't parry.

You sure about that last bit?

Yes. The section on charging manages to be both lengthy and confusing but the key bit is further down
"Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action for the attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the defender during that round"

Basically the defender is allowed one action in response to a charge: either an evade or an attack "standing firm."

Note that due to the way parries work the increased damage modifier does not increase the chance of the attack doing damage. If the charger has a L weapon the defender parries with a L weapon then no damage will be done regardless of the size of the damage modifier.

I've personally house-ruled the charging rules because I find them simultaneously over-complicated and not flexible enough.

 

[PhilHibbs]

The target of a charge must choose to either Evade or to counter-attack. The target can't parry.

You sure about that last bit?

Yes. The section on charging manages to be both lengthy and confusing but the key bit is further down
"Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action for the attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the defender during that round"

The relevant words are "The recipient of a charge has the choice of either standing firm to receive the charge, or attempting to evade the charge." It does not explicitly say that "standing firm" can only be an attack and cannot a parry. Against a large opponent such as a mounted warrior, or a bear, I think it's reasonable to disallow a parry. If a large burly warrior is charged by a Shitzu, though, I'd probably allow it.

 

[Deleriad]

Standing firm says:
"• Standing firm allows the recipient the opportunity to strike at the charging opponent, but he will potentially suffer the brunt of the charge attack, usually resulting in serious damage and/or knockback"

It doesn't say "...opportunity to strike at the charging opponent *or parry the attack*."

Naturally you can house rule whatever you like. I personally allow defenders to parry with a shield (only) but state that the charging weapon is treated as one size larger than normal (two sizes if mounted).

 

[Mikko Leho]

Against a large opponent such as a mounted warrior, or a bear, I think it's reasonable to disallow a parry. If a large burly warrior is charged by a Shitzu, though, I'd probably allow it.

You need define these kinds of limits well ahead. What is the difference between a warrior and a dog, can a warrior parry another warrior's charge, what about a dog charging another dog, how much the size difference must be to make parry impossible, does the parrying weapon matter?

 

[cthulhudarren]

Naturally you can house rule whatever you like. I personally allow defenders to parry with a shield (only) but state that the charging weapon is treated as one size larger than normal (two sizes if mounted).

100% Agree with this.

 

[PhilHibbs]

You need define these kinds of limits well ahead.

No I don't. I can make a decision as and when the situation arises. The default is "no you can't parry", unless I decide that the entire charging entity is small enough that it can be batted aside with a shield in the same way that a weapon can.

Jousting seems to me to be a bit of a special case, how many times have you seen a jouster not try to parry a lance?

 

[simonh]

If a large burly warrior is charged by a Shitzu, though, I'd probably allow it.

How about the The Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog though?

Simon Hibbs

 

[Mikko Leho]

No I don't. I can make a decision as and when the situation arises.

That kind of an attitude would not fly with my group, but to each his own.

 

[cerebro]

Thanks all specially, Deleriad.

I'm now clear. Except for the fact that with a charge I can close distance on a guy with a long spear.

What about monsters?. Lets say I have a giant with a VL club. If I close the distance on him with a knife. Can he attack me?. How about a Wyverns?.Thanks again.

I like to keep the rules clear. That way the players know what to do and what can't be done to them. Changing this game to game, its harmful.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Thanks all specially, Deleriad.

I'm now clear. Except for the fact that with a charge I can close distance on a guy with a long spear.

What about monsters?. Lets say I have a giant with a VL club. If I close the distance on him with a knife. Can he attack me?. How about a Wyverns?.Thanks again.

The person with the longer range weapon always gets the option to attack while the other person is closing. However, this is one case where an evaded attack does not prevent a subsequent attack. Because you are closing, you are initiating an opposed Evade test if the giant wants to prevent you from closing, or the giant can oppose your Evade roll with an attack instead. So, he gets to have a free hit at you (that you can't parry, because you are already opposing with an evade instead of a parry). This is on page 92.

 

[cerebro]

Thanks all specially, Deleriad.

I'm now clear. Except for the fact that with a charge I can close distance on a guy with a long spear.

What about monsters?. Lets say I have a giant with a VL club. If I close the distance on him with a knife. Can he attack me?. How about a Wyverns?.Thanks again.

The person with the longer range weapon always gets the option to attack while the other person is closing. However, this is one case where an evaded attack does not prevent a subsequent attack. Because you are closing, you are initiating an opposed Evade test if the giant wants to prevent you from closing, or the giant can oppose your Evade roll with an attack instead. So, he gets to have a free hit at you (that you can't parry, because you are already opposing with an evade instead of a parry). This is on page 92.

Thanks.

 

[Deleriad]

Here's a flow chart for trying to use the "Change Range" Combat Action in order to close with an opponent. The actor is "Errol" who is trying to close with the troll.

1) Errol Spends 1 CA and declares a Change Range CA.
2) If ugg has a CA left the he can choose one of two options: 1) counterattack or 2) oppose.

3) If ugg chooses to counter-attack then he chooses the appropriate combat style which is opposed by the Errol's Evade skill. If the counter-attack beats the Evade then Errol takes damage as per normal (and can even face a Combat Manoeuvre). If Errol's evade wins then Errol steps out of the way of the attack. Regardless of who wins, if Errol is still alive and on his feet then Errol has closed with Ugg.

4) If Ugg choses to oppose then the action becomes a contest of Evade vs Evade. If Errol wins he closes, if Ugg wins he prevents Errol from closing. If no one wins then nothing happens so Errol also fails to close.

So as you can see, someone with a good evade may try and prevent the close while someone with a poor evade is probably going to have to try a counter-attack and hope to kill the enemy first.

In RQ Evade is a lot more than dodging; it's really the skill of being able to manoeuvre in a duel. Quite a lot of actions and manoeuvres require you to win an evade contest or save yourself with an evade.

 

[Vagni]

Charging down a lone spearman is actually pretty easy if you have a decent sized shield, you just have to rely on your shields strength and the fact you parry the spear head on the way past it. A spearman who can't manoeuvre and change range with you is in serious trouble pretty quickly.

I much prefer the new Evade skill to Dodge, it makes far more sense and is more realistic IMO.

As Deleriad says, it's more of a manoeuvre and positioning in combat skill than ducking and diving attacks.

 

[Mikko Leho]

Charging down a lone spearman is actually pretty easy if you have a decent sized shield, you just have to rely on your shields strength and the fact you parry the spear head on the way past it.

Charging character cannot parry while charging so shield size does not really matter.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Charging down a lone spearman is actually pretty easy if you have a decent sized shield, you just have to rely on your shields strength and the fact you parry the spear head on the way past it.

Charging character cannot parry while charging so shield size does not really matter.

Correct from a RAW POV, but that's a bit of a gap in the rules, it ought to be possible.

 

[Mikko Leho]

Charging character cannot parry while charging so shield size does not really matter.

Correct from a RAW POV, but that's a bit of a gap in the rules, it ought to be possible.

There would not be any downsides for charging if one could charge and parry on the same action. I see charging as a mad dash toward your enemy, an act of desperation rather than careful planning, to which the current rules correspond. I remember Guy Windsor, the founder of The School of European Swordsmanship, saying that charging would be quite suicidal for fencing like situations. Larger battles are a different matter.