Class abilities as feat

[treeplanter]

Hi;

I've been toying with this idea, I might try it for our next campain i'll like to know your opinion.

So basicly the idea is instead of having the the 9 narrow classes you get the same 9 starting archetype. However each class ability (ferocious attack, favored terrain, versatility, uncanny dodge, sneak attack, ect.) become feat. At each CHARACTER level, you get to choose a bonus feat.

So let say for exemple I start as a Barbarian, so I get Track, versatility (and/or maybe crimson mist) and the appropriate . At 2nd level I could choose Ferocious attack as a feat, sneak attack at 3rd, ect.

This would have the advantage of allowing and optimal character customization. It's like multiclassing at will, but without the incoveniant of being stuck with class starting ability when you do so.

However, there is two main problematic to solve to make this working.

1. Bab, defense, save and skill progression. So either players choose their starting package and get stuck with it, or either you let the players switch package, wich can get quite messy. (In the actual system, a noble/soldier would get BAB, defense, fortitude, will and skills point between a soldier and a noble.)
Or you let the player create his own starting package, and it will be that for their carrer.

2. Ability balance and cap. Some classes abilities are stronger than other. For exemple, Born to the saddle is not a great ability. Thus I would make this feat progress automaticly as you go up in level. On the other hand, ferocious attack would require 3 feat (with the appropriate level restriction).

personnaly, I think 1 is much more an issue than 2.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I don't think much of that, for the following reasons:

* The very idea of a class system is to give each class exclusive abilities that no other class can copy. This also includes making certain abilities mutually exclusive -- for instance, if you have Versatility you can't have Weapon Focus, but also any two abilities that are granted past level 11 (as you can't have more than 10 levels in more than one class, logically).

* Of course the class abilities are not equivalent. There are minor bonuses strewn in every here and there, but generally the benefits get more powerful at higher level. Now do you want to allow a character to pick the filets of each class? I'd take Versatility IV, Mounted Mobility, Mounted Guide, and a pile of Sneak Attack. Notice something? Or tie each ability to prerequisites, with which you'd effectively end up at the same class system as we have now.

If you want a classless system, don't bother trying to adapt Conan. Just grab Savage Worlds and download the Savage Sword of Conan gaming aid and be done with it. You'll get a classless system where you can buy Edges, skills etc with XP.

Personally, I prefer class-based systems for fantasy settings and classless systems for modern/SF settings.

 

[treeplanter]

what is savage world? is it d100?

 

[Demetrio]

Nope, it's Dvarious.

It has some merit but in my opinion the various Edges and the way they are assigned need some work, and greater variety. Skills also. Some are too broad others (Knowledge especially) ridiculously narrow in scope.

It is quite simple, almost elegant in play though.

It's also ridiculously cheap and it's worh picking up for ideas alone.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Brief summary of Savage Worlds:
You have some attributes (five?) like Strength, Smarts etc.
Each of these can range anywhere between d4 and d12.
Skills are all assigned to an attribute, similar to the D20 way, and also range between d4 and d12 (iirc a skill can't exceed its base attribute).
All dice explode, i.e. you re-roll on highest result and add.

To make a check, you normally have to roll the relevant die and have to get at least a 4.
Combat is an exception because here you roll against your opponent's Defense.

There are Edges that you can buy which give all sorts of bonuses; one common type of bonus is a +2 to a certain skill or check (which means you'll only fail on a roll of 1 on a normal check).

Player Characters and important NPCs are called "Wild Cards", and have the special boon of _always_ rolling a "Wild Die" (d6) in addition to their normal die, and the higher result counts.

They use a nice damage system where your total damage is your Strength die plus your Weapon die, but the Weapon die can't be greater than the Strength die. Or something like that. When you're hit, you get Soak Rolls to negate the damage. If you fail to Soak, you take Wounds. Taking Wounds is bad news as it incurs penalties on all checks.

A central aspect of the system are "bennies", a little bit like Fate Points but with a migh higher rate of circulation. You get bennies as a reward for doing cool stuff, and you spend bennies to do cool stuff, in addition to their quality as lifesavers.

That's the key points I guess... there are no classes and not exactly levels... you get XP for completing adventures and use them improve your traits and buy new Edges... some Edges require you to have gained a certain XP minimum before you buy them (making you a Seasoned or Veteran character).

 

[Da Boss]

There are indeed quite a number of good classless systems out there

(and much better ones than Savage World IMHO which I found just a reduced version of the much better Deadlands game)

however getting hold of a few of these may help you - although depending on your group you idea could also be fun!?

 

[treeplanter]

as for a d20 adaptation, for the ability of course you need to include a pre-requiste. I tough it was evident, but for exemple Uncanny dodge would be level 4 and level 8 for improve for exemple. If you look at the class ability, most of them are feat anyway (endurance, mobility, diehard, track). Those who are not feat are pretty close to feat (uncanny dodge, ferocious attack, sneak attack, versatility) can easily be transformed into feat with a pre-requiste. In my opinion this is not a big change and it just allow more character customization.

the BAB, save, defense, hit dice and skills progression, on the other hand much more complicated to balance.

 

[Spade]

I've prodded at making d20 into a classless system. You can do it, but you need to start off by stripping a lot down to the bone and rebuilding it.

A lot of class abilities are worth more than a feat. In my last classless project, I built a level progression with a feat at every level, and an extra feat every three levels. You could spend both feat slots on a higher-powered "Talent" feat, or on two mundane feats.

Ultimately, I decided classless d20 leached a lot of flavor out of the game. Guess what system I house ruled for my low-magic, gritty campaign setting? Classes and Races are great containers for a lot of background information, and for some places, it's one of the only ways to pass on key material.

- Spade

 

[Sutek]

as for a d20 adaptation, for the ability of course you need to include a pre-requiste. I tough it was evident, but for exemple Uncanny dodge would be level 4 and level 8 for improve for exemple. If you look at the class ability, most of them are feat anyway (endurance, mobility, diehard, track). Those who are not feat are pretty close to feat (uncanny dodge, ferocious attack, sneak attack, versatility) can easily be transformed into feat with a pre-requiste. In my opinion this is not a big change and it just allow more character customization.

the BAB, save, defense, hit dice and skills progression, on the other hand much more complicated to balance.

I know exactly what you're wanting to do, but the multiclassing rules handle this just fine, IMO. Multiclassing is very generous, and you risk unballancing the classes and potentially the whole game by "selling" class features as feats.

If you insist on coming up with te swap system, then the pre-req would probably need to be based on (a) the origin class versus the class from which the class ability is to be 'taken', (b) the level at which a given class ability is available in the original class and how that might affect availability/cost/etc., amd (c) why this method will be better than, differnt to or combined with the multiclass system.

The way I'd do it is more like this. You're a Barbarian and want Sneak Attack, then take a level of Thief. Done. If you're Thief and want the Barbarian's Bite Sword, than (a) you need to be 2nd level, (b) you have to sacrifice Eyes of the Cat as a Class Ability, but woulf be allowed to get it with a feat slot. The implication is more drastic if a 5th level Thief wanted to have the Barbarian's Mobility and would have to scrifice his own Sneak attack boost to 3d6/3d8 in order to get it. This decision would not allow the Thief to then jump over that increment at 7th level, but should instead delay his Sneak Attack progression. In some cases, such a sacrifice may result in giving up on an exclusive ability that can't be simply delayed or recouped as a feat slot (a 5th lvl Temptress's Binding Contract, for example.)

Like I said though, I reccommend sticking with multiclassing as a means of acquireing the class abilities of other classes.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Yeah, such a system bears its own risks. For instance, if I had the choice with my Barbarian I'd immediately drop all those stupid Trap Sense bonuses that I never need in exchange for Sneak Attack or some extra feats. Would I like that as a player? Yes. Would it be balanced? No.