Clarification on Skinnies in SST Evo.

[cordas]

Just have a couple of questions I would like some clarification on.

1. Ambush -

You can reveal the unit at any time by placing the models on the table.

Is it correct that the Raiders just appear at ANY time during the game? Can they appear during the opponents turn? Hence being able to stop the skinnies from being shattered if they take heavy losses? If so it is my feeling that this is broken. Tunneling bugs (and any other unit that starts off table) don't gain this advantage.

1.1 - Sure I know the answer to this already *GRRR* the Ambushing unit just appears not causing a reaction and then can take 2 actions (assuming that it has been deployed during the Skinnie turn) as per normal. The reading we have of the card is that this is allowable.

2. Agile -

Does this give the model a "2nd" save, as in after its failed its armour roll does it still get its 6+ agile save? Again I think this is yes, but just want to make sure.[/i]

 

[MongooseMatt]

1. Correct. I would try playing it before calling it broken.

1.1. Again, cannot fault your reading comprehension. This is correct. However, doing this can cause difficulties for yourself so, again, try playing it. The checks and balances are already built into the system.

2. Indeed, this is correct. Nimble little blighters!

 

[The Legend]

1. Correct. I would try playing it before calling it broken.

2. Indeed, this is correct. Nimble little blighters!

Hoorah!!!!!

 

[Rob_A]

Keep in mind, if it is off the table, it adds to the break test. This means full raider with ambush armies are no longer allowed or you will automatically break.
Skinnie rules sound broken, but really, most of them aren't.

 

[The Legend]

Keep in mind, if it is off the table, it adds to the break test. This means full raider with ambush armies are no longer allowed or you will automatically break.
Skinnie rules sound broken, but really, most of them aren't.

Ambush doesn't! Matt has confirmed that you can reveal the Ambushers in your opponants turn to avoid the effects of Shattered!!!!

Huzzzaaahhh!!!!!!

 

[Soulmage]

I think ambush sounds like a neat ability that gives skinnies some more flavor other than not-MI MI.

Hopefully nobody in the other factions will get that ability. . .

 

[Rob_A]

Skinnies already have ambush.
As do skinnie advisors.
And yeah, I can see that avoiding shattered, but only the first turn, the minute it gets to your turn, you will have lost if they arent deployed!
I always deployed mine in the air phase so it couldn't be reacted to as well.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Hopefully nobody in the other factions will get that ability. . .

Well, not in SST, anyway. . .

 

[cordas]

1.1 - Sure I know the answer to this already *GRRR* the Ambushing unit just appears not causing a reaction and then can take 2 actions (assuming that it has been deployed during the Skinnie turn) as per normal. The reading we have of the card is that this is allowable.

1.1. Again, cannot fault your reading comprehension. This is correct. However, doing this can cause difficulties for yourself so, again, try playing it. The checks and balances are already built into the system.

So what you are saying is that in the MI turn a unit of of LAMI can be stood in a wood and take their 2 actions, imediatly afterwards a bunch of Raiders can appear right in the middle of them (not touching) but within 1 inch of each LAMI model.

You can then have X more number of MI units act. Then in the Skinnie turn they get to perform 1 action before the LAMI even notice these Raiders stood on their toes...... :shock:

I know the game is a turn based simulation of "real" combat, but this sort of makes a mockery of the idea of putting reactions into the game.

 

[cordas]

Keep in mind, if it is off the table, it adds to the break test. This means full raider with ambush armies are no longer allowed or you will automatically break.
Skinnie rules sound broken, but really, most of them aren't.

Ambush doesn't! Matt has confirmed that you can reveal the Ambushers in your opponants turn to avoid the effects of Shattered!!!!

Huzzzaaahhh!!!!!!

Actually mate, you can put that Huzzzaaahhh!!!!!! back in your pocket for the moment.

Reading Victory and Defeat.

Once an army has been reduced to a quater of the numbers ............., it is immediatly Shattered......... you may only count models that are actually on the table - models that have not yet been deployed (normaly because of special rules that apply only to them) are not counted.

I would say that the Raiders have to be deployed before the damage dice are rolled for them to stop you shattering. The V & D conditions are full of emphatic statements that make this clear.


[/i]

 

[Xorrandor]

So what you are saying is that in the MI turn a unit of of LAMI can be stood in a wood and take their 2 actions, imediatly afterwards a bunch of Raiders can appear right in the middle of them (not touching) but within 1 inch of each LAMI model.

You can then have X more number of MI units act. Then in the Skinnie turn they get to perform 1 action before the LAMI even notice these Raiders stood on their toes...... :shock:

I know the game is a turn based simulation of "real" combat, but this sort of makes a mockery of the idea of putting reactions into the game.

Well, the Raiders didn't in theory have to be placed until the end of the MI turn, or even the beginning of the Skinnies turn. Which works out to the same result: a unit of LAMI is ambushed in the woods. Hopefully you agree that the Skinnies are allowed to actually ambush people with the Ambush ability?

The only difference in your scenario is that the rest of the army was informed of where the ambushers were, and can act accordingly. Poor tactics by the Skinny commander, but at least he surprised the people he planned to surprise.

 

[The Legend]

Keep in mind, if it is off the table, it adds to the break test. This means full raider with ambush armies are no longer allowed or you will automatically break.
Skinnie rules sound broken, but really, most of them aren't.

Ambush doesn't! Matt has confirmed that you can reveal the Ambushers in your opponants turn to avoid the effects of Shattered!!!!

Huzzzaaahhh!!!!!!

Actually mate, you can put that Huzzzaaahhh!!!!!! back in your pocket for the moment.

Reading Victory and Defeat.

Once an army has been reduced to a quater of the numbers ............., it is immediatly Shattered......... you may only count models that are actually on the table - models that have not yet been deployed (normaly because of special rules that apply only to them) are not counted.

I would say that the Raiders have to be deployed before the damage dice are rolled for them to stop you shattering. The V & D conditions are full of emphatic statements that make this clear.


[/i]

Huzzahhh!!!!! You can say owt ya like, read Matts reply to your original post! He confirms your worst fears. Anyway the Skinnie Ambush rules clearly state that you reveal them simply by placing them on the table at any time.

I rest my case.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

the problem is timing - shattering is determined as models are removed (you can be shattered by a reaction, remember). so in order to deploy the ambushers to stave off shattering you'd have to do it before the last model is removed.

 

[Xorrandor]

the problem is timing - shattering is determined as models are removed (you can be shattered by a reaction, remember). so in order to deploy the ambushers to stave off shattering you'd have to do it before the last model is removed.

Sure, but if you can deploy ambushers at any time, you can presumably deploy them as you are removing casualties, or as your opponent is allocating damage dice, or as you roll Agility saves. In any of these cases you end up having enough models on the board to avoid Shattering.

 

[cordas]

Reading Victory and Defeat.

Once an army has been reduced to a quater of the numbers ............., it is immediatly Shattered......... you may only count models that are actually on the table - models that have not yet been deployed (normaly because of special rules that apply only to them) are not counted.

I would say that the Raiders have to be deployed before the damage dice are rolled for them to stop you shattering. The V & D conditions are full of emphatic statements that make this clear.


[/i]

Huzzahhh!!!!! You can say owt ya like, read Matts reply to your original post! He confirms your worst fears. Anyway the Skinnie Ambush rules clearly state that you reveal them simply by placing them on the table at any time.

I rest my case.

Matts post said they can be put on the board at any time true, but read the V & D Conditions.

Once an army has been reduced to a quater of the numbers ............., it is immediatly Shattered......... you may only count models that are actually on the table - models that have not yet been deployed (normaly because of special rules that apply only to them) are not counted.

If the models aren't on the table when the shooting happens, and the skinnies are shattered the game ends that instant, irrelevant of special rules that say anything else it states that in the V & D conditions. Its really quite simple, deploy your raiders before the shooting happens and they are on the table and they count, deploy them after the shooting happens and you are shattered and its to late as you are already shattered as it happens immediatly.

 

[cordas]

Well, the Raiders didn't in theory have to be placed until the end of the MI turn, or even the beginning of the Skinnies turn. Which works out to the same result: a unit of LAMI is ambushed in the woods. Hopefully you agree that the Skinnies are allowed to actually ambush people with the Ambush ability?

The only difference in your scenario is that the rest of the army was informed of where the ambushers were, and can act accordingly. Poor tactics by the Skinny commander, but at least he surprised the people he planned to surprise.

If the Skinnie player was thinking I need re-inforcements before I get shattered then its wise to deploy them then, its just a bit odd that they can pop up on the toes of a unit in its own turn and not force a reaction from them, yet other MI units could open fire on them if the wished (los allowing).

In my scenario this would be very dangerous as the raiders and the LAMI would both be in the fire zone, the raiders would even get a reaction and be able to shoot back whilst the LAMI just stood there like muppets ignoring them. The LAMI wouldn't even be able to react themselves to this shooting as you only react to enemy shooting, and can't react to a reaction.

You could even mess with this more and if you see an opponent in your ambush spot wait for them to complete 1 action then deploy in amongst them and just wait to see what happens.... Do it against warrior bugs and they are mince meat as your reaction will go before their close combat attacks if they decide to charge you, if they don't they loose one action and you still get to shoot them before they charge you.

If you think that makes sense then as far as I see it you need your head examining, and I don't think its that unlikely that a situation like this could occur, in fact when I next use Skinnies its a tactic I think I might use if the oppertunity where to arrise, I am sure all of you can think of half a dozen more ways to abuse this rule if you think about it.

I would just suggest altering the Ambush rule, if you deploy during your opponents turn (and only in the opponents turn) then any unit with 10 inches (or 5 if you wish) gets a reaction.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Once an army has been reduced to a quater of the numbers ............., it is immediatly Shattered......... you may only count models that are actually on the table - models that have not yet been deployed (normaly because of special rules that apply only to them) are not counted.

If the models aren't on the table when the shooting happens, and the skinnies are shattered the game ends that instant, irrelevant of special rules that say anything else it states that in the V & D conditions. Its really quite simple, deploy your raiders before the shooting happens and they are on the table and they count, deploy them after the shooting happens and you are shattered and its to late as you are already shattered as it happens immediatly.

This is correct and, indeed, is _exactly_ why the victory conditions are worded that way. . .

 

[Xorrandor]

If the Skinnie player was thinking I need re-inforcements before I get shattered then its wise to deploy them then, its just a bit odd that they can pop up on the toes of a unit in its own turn and not force a reaction from them, yet other MI units could open fire on them if the wished (los allowing).

Odder than that they successfully ambush the LAMI, but get cut down by the LAMI guns anyway? Again, how do you define the word "ambush"?

You could even mess with this more and if you see an opponent in your ambush spot wait for them to complete 1 action then deploy in amongst them and just wait to see what happens.... Do it against warrior bugs and they are mince meat as your reaction will go before their close combat attacks if they decide to charge you, if they don't they loose one action and you still get to shoot them before they charge you.

Wow, if you ambush warrior bugs then they are mince meat. If you ambush anyone, they should be mince meat. That's why it's an ambush!

If you think that makes sense then as far as I see it you need your head examining, and I don't think its that unlikely that a situation like this could occur, in fact when I next use Stu's Skinnies its a tactic I think I might use if the oppertunity where to arrise, although I could see him throwing a complete hissy fit over it...... This is far worse than the mere idea of FZ snipping......... I am sure all of you can think of half a dozen more ways to abuse this rule if you think about it.

I would just suggest altering the Ambush rule, if you deploy during your opponents turn (and only in the opponents turn) then any unit with 10 inches (or 5 if you wish) gets a reaction.

I don't think it's an unlikely situation either, I just don't see the problem. So I suppose I should go get my head examined; fortunately I have an appointment to do just that tomorrow... (An eye exam counts as having your head examined, right?)

 

[Xorrandor]

This is correct and, indeed, is _exactly_ why the victory conditions are worded that way. . .

And yet, earlier you made the point that Ambush could be triggered "at any time". So, what times don't count as "at any time"? When is the latest point that a Skinnie player can say "OK, these guys are using the Ambush ability"?

 

[Voracioustigger]

This is correct and, indeed, is _exactly_ why the victory conditions are worded that way. . .

And yet, earlier you made the point that Ambush could be triggered "at any time". So, what times don't count as "at any time"? When is the latest point that a Skinnie player can say "OK, these guys are using the Ambush ability"?

I'd say up until he rolls the die for the last skinnie armor save before his army shatters... but I guess that's only if you are CRAZY enough to think that "any time" means the same thing as.... "any time"... :wink: