Clarification on Skinnies in SST Evo.

[cordas]

In your example, you can place ambushers on the table at any point, up to but not including the dice roll for a Shoot or Charge action because, as soon as those dice are rolled, models will be dying.

Thank you, so the Skinnie opponent can say I am shooting at that unit as he rolls the dice.

 

[The Legend]

Guys, you really, _really_ need to try the Ambush rules in the real world. And I'll tell you why. . .



A lot of the examples you are coming up with as to why they are broken are simply not going to happen. Not unlikely, not in one game in ten - they just can't happen. You are missing a few key points because you are theorising from the armchair, and not trying them out in anger, as it were.

Give them a whirl. You'll see a lot of things resolve themselves when you play (and, incidentally, this goes for a lot of comments made on SST Evo thus far - we can usually tell when someone hits a problem in a game and when they are just doing thought experiments ).

To be honest Matt we've used the Skinnie Ambush rules a few times now and we never had any problems with it! I think it was hurt pride and disbelief at the Skinnies ability to surprise their opponant. I like em.

 

[The Legend]

In your example, you can place ambushers on the table at any point, up to but not including the dice roll for a Shoot or Charge action because, as soon as those dice are rolled, models will be dying.

Thank you, so the Skinnie opponent can say I am shooting at that unit as he rolls the dice.

No!! Because you declare the action then roll dice:

In your example, you can place ambushers on the table at any point, up to but not including the dice roll for a Shoot or Charge action because, as soon as those dice are rolled, models will be dying.

That covers it.

 

[MaxSteiner]

So by that definition you can declare the ambush when a shoot action has been declared but before the dice have been rolled?

The rules on the card at present say you can declare it at any time, so its vital to highlight all of these ambiguous rulings before the release of the game, because not every player is going to check this site for every thing that doesnt make sense (And the rulesmaster thing isn't infalible, we never got a ruling on what the guard bugs ability actually meant for example), and you can stare at something you've been working on for weeks without spotting something that a new reader will spot in seconds.

Maybe the ruling should be 'you can declare an ambush before any action is declaired in either players turn' or something like that?
Or maybe each armies units could come with an extra sheet providing a faq for their special rules.

 

[Xorrandor]

In your example, you can place ambushers on the table at any point, up to but not including the dice roll for a Shoot or Charge action because, as soon as those dice are rolled, models will be dying.

That covers it.

??? How can models be dying after a Shoot or Charge roll? Every Skinnie in the game (so far) gets an Agility save. They're dying, until they get up and say "Oh, I'm feeling much better now."?

Sorry, but from my particular armchair this doesn't make any sense.

 

[MongooseMatt]

So by that definition you can declare the ambush when a shoot action has been declared but before the dice have been rolled?

Of course you can. Declaring the ambush at any time means you can declare it at _any_ time!

On the other hand, if you are hoping to save yourself from Shattering by doing this, if a Shoot action has already been rolled, you are too late. but your ambushing models can still pop up.

I really cannot be clearer on this point - you can declare an ambush at _any_ time! Any time. At all. Try it out. It works. Think of it as the Skinnie's 'thing' (well, one of them).

 

[Xorrandor]

Of course you can. Declaring the ambush at any time means you can declare it at _any_ time!

On the other hand, if you are hoping to save yourself from Shattering by doing this, if a Shoot action has already been rolled, you are too late. but your ambushing models can still pop up.

I really cannot be clearer on this point - you can declare an ambush at _any_ time! Any time. At all. Try it out. It works. Think of it as the Skinnie's 'thing' (well, one of them).

And I can't be clearer on this point: I don't understand this ruling.

The Shoot action has already been rolled, fine. You got 3 Targets and a Kill, congratulations. My models are still on the table. They aren't dead yet, because I have 3 Armor saves and up to 4 Agility saves to make. I declare Ambush, and place my Raiders on the table. At no time has there been fewer models on the table than my Shatter point. And yet, you claim my army has been Shattered, because when I failed all my saves I went below the Shatter point.

Once again: at no time has there been fewer models on the table than my Shatter point, and yet, my army has been Shattered. I don't understand.

 

[Soulmage]

The Shoot action has already been rolled, fine. You got 3 Targets and a Kill, congratulations. My models are still on the table. They aren't dead yet, because I have 3 Armor saves and up to 4 Agility saves to make.

I have to agree. Seems to me this would prevent a shatter.

On the other hand. . . .

I've got to take a step back and think about this in the larger context of the game.

If you are spending points on a unit of troops, then never deploying them just so you can pull off this particular trick. . . I think you are much worse off than if you were to just go ahead and deploy them and use them normally.

It is true, the ambushing unit might just happen to be in the right place at the right time for you to use them like this. But it won't happen very often naturally and if you hold onto them specifically for this, you're basically fighting down some points from your opponent.

 

[Xorrandor]

If you are spending points on a unit of troops, then never deploying them just so you can pull off this particular trick. . . I think you are much worse off than if you were to just go ahead and deploy them and use them normally.

It is true, the ambushing unit might just happen to be in the right place at the right time for you to use them like this. But it won't happen very often naturally and if you hold onto them specifically for this, you're basically fighting down some points from your opponent.

Oh, sure, this is hardly the way you want to deploy your units. And actually the ambushing unit has to be at the wrong place at the right time for this to make sense: they are in some piece of cover that you thought would be important at the beginning of the game, but no one has come close to it. Even worse, they've been parading high value units just out of range, so you keep hoping they'll slip up.

Besides, I don't think this qualifies as much of a "trick". The enemy knows the Raiders are out there somewhere; they know what your shatter limit is, and are presumed to be able to count, even if you don't show each other army lists at the beginning of the game. (Now that you think about it, this is probably why all his guys are staying just a little bit out of Constrictor range. But revealing your troops to his long-range guns didn't make sense either.) This is a way to keep from losing when you've still got more men on the field. Even if it is a cheap trick, I fail to see why it's any cheaper a trick after the damage roll than before.

 

[cordas]

The Shoot action has already been rolled, fine. You got 3 Targets and a Kill, congratulations. My models are still on the table. They aren't dead yet, because I have 3 Armor saves and up to 4 Agility saves to make.

I have to agree. Seems to me this would prevent a shatter.

Ditto. Yes I might have rolled 6 kills and a couple of targets on that Skinnie unit and only need to kill 4 to shatter the army. However due to the agile rule none of these models are dead until they have failed their 6+ agile roll.

Does this mean that the dice you where talking about rolling Matt aren't the shooting dice but the agile save dice. If thats the case then this just makes a mockery of the V & D conditions, or they should be changed to say

Once an army has been reduced to a quater of the numbers ............., it is immediatly Shattered......... you may only count models that are actually on the table - models that have not yet been deployed (normaly because of special rules that apply only to them, apart from the Skinnies and their Ambush rule which can be used to deploy any raiders that are still held in ambush as the Skinnie player can deploy these at any time before the skinnie player is forced to make his agile saves.) are not counted.

as that is what you are saying. As the Skinnie player chooses when he rolls his dice he would either have to agree this is wrong and choose not to deploy and accept defeat, or he can deploy his troops and isn't shattered and the game continues.

 

[Court Jester]

If thats the case then this just makes a mockery of the V & D conditions, or they should be changed to say

Once an army has been reduced to a quater of the numbers ............., it is immediatly Shattered......... you may only count models that are actually on the table - models that have not yet been deployed (normaly because of special rules that apply only to them, apart from the Skinnies and their Ambush rule which can be used to deploy any raiders that are still held in ambush as the Skinnie player can deploy these at any time before the skinnie player is forced to make his agile saves.) are not counted.

I smell hyperbole and over reaction...

Get over it guy... in the grand scheme of things this is so not worth getting your panties in a bunch over.

So what if this one rule, if used at this one time might save a Skinnie force from shattering...

 

[Xorrandor]

So what if this one rule, if used at this one time might save a Skinnie force from shattering...

Well, I might agree that "makes a mockery" is a bit of poetic license. But surely you can see why the phrase "you may declare an ambush at any time" should mean that one can use this one rule (ambush), at this one time (which is a subset of any time), to save a Skinnie force from shattering?

 

[MaxSteiner]

Well its just one of the hurdles of having a two page rules sheet I guess.
The advanced book will probably have a section clarifying it.

 

[cordas]

I smell hyperbole and over reaction...

Get over it guy... in the grand scheme of things this is so not worth getting your panties in a bunch over.

So what if this one rule, if used at this one time might save a Skinnie force from shattering...

Yup, it is *HANDS UP*.

Then again I am trying to get this thrashed out here because I know from my wargaming experience that these types of grey areas cause lots of arguements, and the most bitter arguements that really destroy any of the fun in war gaming come from exactly this kind of grey area because both involved parties see it as absolutly clear and obvious that they are right and the other is wrong.

I would far rather have these arguements on a forum with a bunch of strangers (for the most part), where it doesn't matter. Than have these arguements with my mates in the middle of a wargame that my and my friends are supposedly playing for fun.

 

[cordas]

Well its just one of the hurdles of having a two page rules sheet I guess.
The advanced book will probably have a section clarifying it.

I hope so, and maybe because of this arguement MGP will put a bit into the Advanced rules to make sure this issue is a non issue. Also given the huge felxibility of when you can deploy an ambush will impact lots of other victory conditions.

All speculation about this will be entirely hypothetical untill we see the Advanced rules. Just imagine an "objective marker" style mission where as part of the mission you have to take control of an object that isn't in either DZ....

 

[Court Jester]

Mats reply could be taken as gospel... but when I read it I took it as having a more generic meaning, that once the dice have been rolled that will specifically determin casualties, be that dodge saves, or armour saves or just rolls to hit you have lost the chance to ambush.

Because once those dice are rolled (be they to hit or saves) their effects are applied. and the models are dead or not dead.

It is quite simple, you just have to be on your toes if you are a skinnie player who is getting close to being wiped out and still have ambushers to deploy.

 

[cordas]

Mats reply could be taken as gospel... but when I read it I took it as having a more generic meaning, that once the dice have been rolled that will specifically determin casualties, be that dodge saves, or armour saves or just rolls to hit you have lost the chance to ambush.

Because once those dice are rolled (be they to hit or saves) their effects are applied. and the models are dead or not dead.

It is quite simple, you just have to be on your toes if you are a skinnie player who is getting close to being wiped out and still have ambushers to deploy.

Or you could take a generic reading of the Ambush rule that when it says any time it means any time outisde the middle of a declared acion.

I think it would be much easier to assume this (yes I am anti skinnie in this arguement in general so I am basised), as a Skinnie player you can still deploy your ambush before the shoot action is declared. This way the Skinnies can get their ambush on the board in time to stop them from being shattered, but its a gamble as the opponent (whos turn it is) could then decide to declare a different action.

Taking your "generic" reading is great from the skinnie point of view as it ties your opponents action down before you decide what you want to do, you can then act to disrupt that action and cause all sorts of other things to occur.

Imagine the shooting example used, the Skinnie player not only avoids being shattered but now because of his reaction shooting shatters his opponent. Yes its a "classic" ambush but IMHO it goes commpletely against the spirt of the game, especaily when a different "generic" reading of the rules says that this can't be done, in the group of friends I game with I could only see that ending in a blazing row, I know I would be throwing not just my toys out of the pram but myself and all the bedding as well if I lost like that, and I am just about certain everyone else in my gaming group would react the same if they lost a game in similar cheesy manner (wether because of the Ambush rule, or a different grey area).

Thats why I want a cut and dried unambiguous ruling on this issue, one of which no generic reading is required. Yes I am still labouring this point, and I am getting sick of it, but it still hasn't been resloved in my opinion (and others as I am not alone in my complaints). I war game to have fun with my mates not to argue with them, but then I am as stuborn as they are and rarely back down just for the sake of some peace and quiet, or common sense.

 

[Court Jester]

Imagine the shooting example used, the Skinnie player not only avoids being shattered but now because of his reaction shooting shatters his opponent. Yes its a "classic" ambush but IMHO it goes commpletely against the spirt of the game

How is it any different if you declare a shooting action, so the skinnies deploy from ambush than having them deploy before they make their saves?

You are left with the same basic results (even if they came about slightly differently)... you cannot shatter their force as a result of the increased number of models and they then go on to react and shoot you shattering you.

Or you could take a generic reading of the Ambush rule that when it says any time it means any time outisde the middle of a declared acion.

No, what you have done there is add to the rule requirements that it does not have. The rules are pretty clear... "at any time"... Your force is not shattered until your dudes roll their saves and at that point you have lost thegame or not lost the game. If you have lost you have also missed the chance to deploy tyour ambushers. So your ambushers need to be deployed at any moment up until that point if you want to avoid being shattered.

Your main beef seems to be with the victory conditions not ambushing.

 

[Xorrandor]

Mats reply could be taken as gospel... but when I read it I took it as having a more generic meaning, that once the dice have been rolled that will specifically determin casualties, be that dodge saves, or armour saves or just rolls to hit you have lost the chance to ambush.

Well, I've never met the guy, so I don't know where to take generic meaning. If your interpretation is correct, then I'm OK with that. It was having some dice stop time and some not that was confusing me.

I don't see this as an abusive tactic, personally, regardless of how you interpret the rule. Which makes the arguments worse, in a way: now the Skinnie player is losing the game not because he was stalling for some subtle advantage, but because he misunderstood the rules. He didn't declare an ambush because he didn't think he needed to until the Agility saves were done, his opponent thinks it was just a boneheaded move like the time his Leader of Slaves tried to take on a Tanker Bug alone. He didn't get to take that suicidal charge back, why should he get to take back his ambush declaration? Big argument, hard feelings all around.

 

[cordas]

You are left with the same basic results (even if they came about slightly differently)... you cannot shatter their force as a result of the increased number of models and they then go on to react and shoot you shattering you.

My mistake I didn't explain what I meant when I said that, simply having more models doesn't shatter your opponent.

What I should have said is that its further possible in close games that reaction fire by the raiders that jump out ambush can shatter the opponent.

Your main beef seems to be with the victory conditions not ambushing.

No my beef isn't at all with the V & D Conditions, I think they are perfectly clear and understandable. My beef is how the skinnies can ignore these conditions by use of the ambush rule, or combined use of the agile and ambush rule. The V & D conditions state that special rules can't be used to break them, but according to Matt they can be, or they can't be I am not sure, or as you said we should make a generic decision.

The fact that raiders can be deployed at any time during an action that should / could shatter the skinnie force is what I feel is broken / abusive / just plain wrong, and the more its argued about the less I can see how this is allowable with out altering the V & D conditions so that 1 army can ignore them in certain circumstances at that players discretion. Make it so that ambush can't be done during an action and this whole arguement goes away.

I thought the whole idea of play testing was to throw up these issues so they could be resolved, and as the game hasn't been officaly released yet why not consider the fact that we have rules and cards to be just more play testing that can be used to clear up these problems, rather than saying you are wrong and you aren't reading the rules, and just play them.