Civilian/Military Vehciles Problem

[chrisboote]

I have searched through the forum so if this has cropped up before, I apologise

WTF? Wheels are TL4?
Surely Wheels are TL1 - in fact, there's even a TL1 example at the back of the book - p49, Wagon, TL1, Drive System - Wheels

Have I missed something somewhere?

 

[rust]

Civilian Vehicles and Military Vehicles have a lot of problems and take
quite some effort to make the design system produce plausible vehicles,
this is just one of the many fumbles.

 

[CosmicGamer]

You want vehicles to use a wheel chiseled out of stone or made from wood?

 

[chrisboote]

Wood, definitely
Carts, wagons, gypsy caravans, all TL1, carriages, stage coaches TL2 or 3
Stone, maybe. Only seen that once, on Malta, but as it would definitely still be TL0, I'm not fussed about

And gasbags at TL4? What about the Montgolfier brothers? TL3 at best!

Are there any links to other Civilian/Military vehicle problems anyone could provide?

 

[rust]

Are there any links to other Civilian/Military vehicle problems anyone could provide?

I have technical problems with the forum's search function (for some rea-
son it is incredibly slow), but with a little patience (or another browser ?)
the threads should be easy to find.

My biggest personal bugbears are:

- the examples used in the book (the ones in the grey boxes) are based
on an earlier version of the design system, they do not work with the pub-
lished system,

- all submarines built with the system (including all the examples) are un-
able to dive, they are too light and therefore float, because the system ig-
nores the need for ballast tanks,

- a turbine of TL 5 has the same power output of 20 as a nuclear fusion
power plant of TL 8 (and there are some more strange data in the power
plant table).

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Don't forget Chariots. Definitely Bronze Age which puts them squarely within TL 1.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Were the power-plant issues ever codified into any definite findings?

 

[rust]

Were the power-plant issues ever codified into any definite findings?

I do not think so, at least I do not remember to have seen anything of
that kind.

 

[Sturn]

I have a list of personal erratta, some my creation, some from these forums, if anyone is interested. I tried to keep it to very small changes, nothing wide-ranging even if I thought something more radical was better. I wanted to keep it as a small amount of erratta, not an over-haul.

It is a work in progress and I would appreciate any comments. If there is interest I can edit it for posting when I get a chance.

Might be better to post it in a different thread so as not to hijack this one?

 

[alex_greene]

You want vehicles to use a wheel chiseled out of stone or made from wood?

Wheels of stone would be mill wheels.

Wheel History

Mesopotamian TL 1 Wheel - made of wood

 

[Galadrion]

And gasbags at TL4? What about the Montgolfier brothers? TL3 at best!

Hm. Well, if you bring in the rules from Central Supply Catalog, you could almost certainly rule that the Montgolfiers were working with prototypes. If I'm remembering right (can't really consult the books from a couple of miles away!), that should allow a discrepancy of a single tech level - although from history, I'd be inclined to allow theoreticians a bit more leeway, thus opening the doors for people such as Archimedes and Leonardo.

 

[rust]

... I'd be inclined to allow theoreticians a bit more leeway, thus opening the doors for people such as Archimedes and Leonardo.

I agree, although I would introduce requirements of Intelligence 15 and a
relevant skill level of 5+ for this, to prevent the average player character
from causing chaos in my setting with his TL 17 inventions.

 

[Galadrion]

Oh, no need to make the requirements that extreme - after all, very few of history's actual paradigm-shifting technologists would meet those requirements.

What those technologists did have which most PCs don't is persistence - and if you set up the tasks for advancement of tech level appropriately, the players won't bother very often. A paradigm-shifting development would take most such technologists anywhere from a couple of months to a couple of years to work through... all with no guarantee of success. Thomas Edison, for example, was by all standards one of the most prominent of those technologists, producing scores of new developments... yet in decades of work, he never succeeded in the task he most wanted.

No, if you set it up so that a player-inventor needs to go through four or five very difficult (or harder!) tasks, each of which takes 1-6 weeks, very few players are actually going to stay the course... particularly if there are additional costs involved. (Assistants' wages, lab rental/supply, keeping the local council/homeowners' association from closing down your lab after the third explosion this week...) And bear in mind that this process will gain the players one example of superior tech... not an entire tech level's worth of products. No, one player is not going to single-handedly uplift a planetary society... not without access to a lot more resources than most of them know how to acquire... or use.

Oh, and note that in my earlier entry, I specifically called out theoreticians. In the case of Leonardo, especially, the majority of his designs WERE NOT PRODUCED during his lifetime... or even anytime remotely contemporary. The materials and the support technology simply weren't there. So he produced workable designs for helicopters... if you overlook the minor fact that it would be centuries before materials science or engine design would be at the point his helicopters required. This would be the position your TL17-designing inventors would be in: "I've got this real neat disintigrator pistol. Now I just need a battery pack with the output of a city power plant I can carry around..."

 

[rust]

No, one player is not going to single-handedly uplift a planetary society... not without access to a lot more resources than most of them know how to acquire... or use.

Well, you do not know my players, they love what they call "heroic engi-
neering", and we already had several scenarios of that kind. :lol:

 

[alex_greene]

I like the idea of TL 4 inventions appearing before their time in anachrotech alternative settings.

At TL 1, Eratosthenes had already correctly deduced that the Earth was a ball and not a plate, and Greeks already knew about hydraulics and rudimentary steam power.

Consider the idea of an Earth from an alternative history where the Athenians defeated the Romans through technologies such as steam-driven repeater catapults capable of massively rapid fire, or the accidental discovery of gunpowder leading to the invention of TL 1 cannon.

Or imagine primitive TL 1 man discovering even more exotic fuels, such as methanol / hydrogen peroxide with a platinum catalyst in a bronze reaction chamber. In a history where Thera never went Krakatoa, burying the Minoan civilisation, imagine what they would have done had they lived long enough for scientific creativity to flourish.

 

[rust]

I like the idea of TL 4 inventions appearing before their time in anachrotech alternative settings.

They are real fun, but can also turn a (pseudo-) historical setting into a
referee's nightmare, because they destroy the timeline and force him
to design a completely new history of at least a region of the world.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I have a list of personal erratta, some my creation, some from these forums, if anyone is interested. I tried to keep it to very small changes, nothing wide-ranging even if I thought something more radical was better. I wanted to keep it as a small amount of erratta, not an over-haul.

It is a work in progress and I would appreciate any comments. If there is interest I can edit it for posting when I get a chance.

Well, I'm interested!!!!

Might be better to post it in a different thread so as not to hijack this one?

Very civil of you (nearly a pun there... but couldn't quite face it).

 

[Fedmahn Kassad]

I have a list of personal erratta, some my creation, some from these forums, if anyone is interested. I tried to keep it to very small changes, nothing wide-ranging even if I thought something more radical was better. I wanted to keep it as a small amount of erratta, not an over-haul.

Colour me interested as well!

 

[apoc527]

Same here. And I say post it right in this thread and let's discuss!

 

[Sturn]

My "working" list of erratta that corrects some of the issues discussed on these forums. I've been adding to this as I've been designing vehicles for my Terran Dawn campaign. Please tell me if you note any problems. I've tried not to overhaul the system. I hoped to make only slight changes to fix some issues.

I don't take credit for all of these! Some of the ideas have been taken from other posts here.

Page references below are to Civilian Vehicles, I don't have Military Vehicles except for the options/upgrades list. I believe though that the pages in both for the design rules might be the same or very close.

Problem: High TL armors not as desirable as some lower TL armors

(Page 13) Change Superdense to 8400 mass (instead of 9000) and Bonded Superdense to 9000 (instead of 12000).

(Page 5) Change Superdense Hull Mass per m3 to 140 (instead of 150) and Bonded Superdense Hull Mass per m3 to 150 (instead of 200). This makes both in sync with the new ratios created by the changes on page 13.

Problem: Sloped armor takes up so much space that it's bonus is circumvented by instead using the lost space for increased armor.

(Page 6) Remove Super Sloped leaving only Sloped as an option. Remove the Armor x1.1 Effect to be replaced by Armor mass 0.75. The volume penalty of 0.9 remains. This results in armor of less mass giving the same protection if sloped while taking up some extra space. Armor in the vehicle design system doesn't take up much space, but it's mass is significant. Armor is more limited by mass then volume. Sloped armor allows a better performing vehicle by reducing the overall vehicle weight. Yes you could pump more armor into that lost 10%, but it's mass, not volume, that seems to limit armor more.

Problem: Low tech wheeled vehicles can't be designed.

(Page 8 ) Reduce Wheels drive from TL 4 to TL 1.

Problem: Many Power Plant - Drive combinations are non-sensical.

(Page 10): Add notes disallowing some Power Plants to be used to power certain Drives (a.i. a Jet drive can't be powered by Solar panels to create a jet airplane that doesn't need fuel).

Problem: No true Battery Power Plants.

(Page 10): Under Solar notes, the base 2 hour battery life can be expanded (but not reduced). For each 1/2 power of the batteries, double the endurance. A.i. 1/2 total power gives 4 hours endurance while 1/4 power gives 8 hours endurance. I've thought about the option of removing solar panels (recharge from a power plant) to reduce the base mass from 20 to 18?

Problem: Typo on page 13, "reduce the mass of these types of weapons by 75%".

(Page 13) Change the above to read "to 75%". This seems to be in line with the example weapon charts when comparing them to the Central Supply Catalog.

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The following are things I'm considering, but I haven't decided or come up with an exact rule yet:

Problem: Communication devices seem to be too large when equipping them in small vehicles.

(Page 19) Allow communication devices to use the sensor option of "Compact" giving 1/2 mass, 1/2 m3, at double the cost. I'm not sure if this would conflict with the radio sizes given in other sources of Mongoose Traveller.

Problem: Hangar space seems to be off when compared to some other versions of Traveller.

(Page XX) Add several options for hangars of varying sizes. When figuring the volume of a carried vehicle, first multiply m3 by 1.35 (this allows for 10 m3 = 1 d-ton as stated on page 4).

Form Fitting: x1 m3. No repairs possible. 3 minutes to launch.
Minimal Hangar: x2 m3. 1 minute to launch.
Spacious Hanger: x4 m3. 1 round to launch.
Launch Tube: x25 m3. Launch 10 vehicles per round.

Note: I used the same erratta for my High Guard hangars (with different launch times for small craft). I've considered not allowing form fitting hangars for vehicles, only small craft.

Problem: Speed results seem too detailed for a game (a.i. 142 kph instead of 140).

(Page 26) Round speeds to the nearest 5/10. A.i. 142 kph becomes 140 kph, 84 kph becomes 85 kph.

Problem: Fusion Power Plants may need an upgrade when compared to lower TL options.

(Page 10) Still thinking about this. Not sure if I want to fiddle with it or not, unsure of the consequences to published designs.

Problem: Submarines can't sink.

(Page XX): Add ballast tanks. Unsure of volume, mass, price requirements. Haven't examined this in detail yet since I haven't designed any watercraft. Someone on this forum has already looked into this.