Change to TAS Conditions - Use of AI

[Endie]

i found it. you are right.

some of the artirsts they pay, use ai to create first impression mock-ups. Then they choose one and the artist create one starting from 0.
Also:
"
Here is the important bit though. Once the composition has been selected, the generated piece is put to one side and the actual final piece is created from scratch.
"
But the art is done by the artist not the ai.

so for me no ai art or wrtting is used.

and regarding the adoption will be widespread, maybe. but maybe is a passing trend as a lot of things i have seen during my life, saying they would be the wonka fabulous ultimate thing and two years later are deep forgotten.

Only time will see

"This is the line of death, you shall not cross."

[Crosses line]

"This is the new line of death. This, you shall never cross!"

So for you, art is the technical implementation, not the initial inspiration?

On the passing fad thing, quite a lot of us have been around a long time and remember these crazy computer passing fads:

 

[CyborgPrime]

Since I’m being referred to yet again, let me respond once more.

I didn’t “skew” or “manipulate” anything. When I first came across that poll, it had around a dozen votes and leaned roughly two to one against AI. All I did was share the public link so that more Traveller fans could weigh in (something several others did as well). There were no rules against sharing it, and everyone who voted still had to create a legitimate forum account. That’s not manipulation; that’s community engagement.

What actually happened is that the poll started inside a small echo chamber, and once more voices joined, the results began to balance out. Then, right as the “yes” votes were about to overtake the “no’s,” the poll was abruptly shut down. Closing it at that moment and then calling me disingenuous for broadening participation is, frankly, ironic.

I can’t control who joins the forum or how they vote- only whether they know the discussion exists. If the goal was truly to “take the temperature” of the Traveller community, it doesn’t make much sense to turn off the thermometer the second the reading starts to change.

If someone’s still nursing a grudge months later, it’s probably because their ill-conceived echo-chamber poll didn’t survive contact with the broader Traveller community. Nothing is stopping anyone from posting a new one today, except perhaps the realization that the Traveller community isn’t as much of an echo chamber anymore.

I can see you’re still sore about how it played out, and I genuinely hope you can get over it soon - because at the end of the day, the rest of us have moved on.

 

[Enkelas]

"This is the line of death, you shall not cross."

[Crosses line]

"This is the new line of death. This, you shall never cross!"

So for you, art is the technical implementation, not the initial inspiration?

On the passing fad thing, quite a lot of us have been around a long time and remember these crazy computer passing fads:

i did say:

" i will never buy something that has ai art or writing".

the line is not crossed. the artist creates the whole picture from 0. she draws it. there are no input commands and voila a picture.

that is the line for me and we always be.

Artist can inspire in whatever they want, as sometime art is abstract. everything is important.

drawing on your own, doing a picture and not using something that outputs everything on a screen, paper or whatever, that is art. Giving passion to it and not to "make me some picture of a cat with a banana" input.

if you want to use it, go ahead, be free. i respect you about that.

then if mongoose does not want ai art on their books, then respect it. it is their resolution.

and about the picture, well, diskman where the summun on their time and no one use them now.
sometime things perdure, sometime dont

 

[Zarpaulek]

"This is the line of death, you shall not cross."

[Crosses line]

"This is the new line of death. This, you shall never cross!"

So for you, art is the technical implementation, not the initial inspiration?

On the passing fad thing, quite a lot of us have been around a long time and remember these crazy computer passing fads:

View attachment 6451

Yet you seem to have forgotten the "Dot Com" bubble collapse and how just a few years ago the same people hawking LLMs were claiming that NFTs or "the Metaverse" were going to be the next big thing.

 

[Endie]

Yet you seem to have forgotten the "Dot Com" bubble collapse and how just a few years ago the same people hawking LLMs were claiming that NFTs or "the Metaverse" were going to be the next big thing.

Lawl I was a software engineer during the dotcom bubble and what I remember is that somehow the internet is still in use, Amazon and the rest are still incredibly profitable, and that just because some internet stocks were overvalued didn't stop the technology itself proving to be the greatest technological revolution in my lifetime (so far).

Everyone spouting the whole "tut tut I'm so wise it's a bubble" line - importantly, even the shoeshine boys - forgets that fact: just because the stocks are overpriced and some companies will undoubtedly fail doesn't mean that the revolution won't be real in the end. There was a railway bubble and crash and yet somehow I'm booked onto a train in a couple of weeks.

 

[jwlovell]

i found it. you are right.

some of the artirsts they pay, use ai to create first impression mock-ups. Then they choose one and the artist create one starting from 0.
Also:
"
Here is the important bit though. Once the composition has been selected, the generated piece is put to one side and the actual final piece is created from scratch.
"
But the art is done by the artist not the ai.

so for me no ai art or wrtting is used.

And here is where the disconnect happens, every time. As I pointed out to Matt:

“Ironically, your example is the best argument against a blanket ban, you are acknowledging real value from AI in the workflow: your artists use it to explore compositions faster, then produce a human-crafted final. That proves the principle that Mongoose is living by isn’t “no AI,” it’s human authorship, accountability, and rights while leveraging AI as a tool in the workflow.”

Its a double standard if its ok to use AI as a tool in house or selectively allow others use it but stop all other people from using it - this is what I am fighting for.

 

[Anstett]

But Mongoose is not stopping anyone from using AI in products they want to sell that you can use with Traveller. I have several items like that.


Only products that you want to sell that have their branding (Mongoose, or TAS, or others) on it.

The example you quote does hit the nail on the head. Mongoose is using a selective tool to do create their products.

They get to be selective on who they allow into that process and which tools they use. Zero double standard.

 

[Endie]

But Mongoose is not stopping anyone from using AI in products they want to sell that you can use with Traveller. I have several items like that.


Only products that you want to sell that have their branding (Mongoose, or TAS, or others) on it.

The example you quote does hit the nail on the head. Mongoose is using a selective tool to do create their products.

They get to be selective on who they allow into that process and which tools they use. Zero double standard.

I'm with you most of the way but it is 100% a double standard: no AI for anyone else but AI where they want to use it. A rule that applies to others but not to them is a central example of a double standard!

I don't blame them - only idiots don't use every advantage possible in today's tight market - but it is still a double standard: jam for me but not for thee. Luckily it is absolutely unenforceable for people who copy their specific use of AI, unless they foolishly boast about it.

As someone who has no desire to sell anything I'm not that worked up while this lasts. I just wish I could use the TAS logo for free stuff I want to give away.

 

[Anstett]

I just wish I could use the TAS logo for free stuff I want to give away.

Heh, no need to tell that to the VTT people. We have been wanting to publish on TAS on the various platforms for a while.

That is partially tied up in DriveThru's rules I know but it is frustrating.

 

[Enkelas]

And here is where the disconnect happens, every time. As I pointed out to Matt:

“Ironically, your example is the best argument against a blanket ban, you are acknowledging real value from AI in the workflow: your artists use it to explore compositions faster, then produce a human-crafted final. That proves the principle that Mongoose is living by isn’t “no AI,” it’s human authorship, accountability, and rights while leveraging AI as a tool in the workflow.”

Its a double standard if its ok to use AI as a tool in house or selectively allow others use it but stop all other people from using it - this is what I am fighting for.

it seems you have not read what i post in other answer.

i copy it for you here:

"
i did say:

" i will never buy something that has ai art or writing".

the line is not crossed. the artist creates the whole picture from 0. she draws it. there are no input commands and voila a picture.

that is the line for me and we always be.

Artist can inspire in whatever they want, as sometime art is abstract. everything is important.

drawing on your own, doing a picture and not using something that outputs everything on a screen, paper or whatever, that is art. Giving passion to it and not to "make me some picture of a cat with a banana" input.

if you want to use it, go ahead, be free. i respect you about that.

then if mongoose does not want ai art on their books, then respect it. it is their resolution.

and about the picture, well, diskman where the summun on their time and no one use them now.
sometime things perdure, sometime dont

"

so as you can see, i say if you want to use it, be free, i will respect it.

i have no problem people use it, but i do not want to be forced to use anything i do not like o i think it is against jobs and only use for greed or create bland art o writting.

By the way i do not use ai in any thing. not the phone, not the pc, nothing.
The day that a ai is truly an ai and sentient, i will be the first to fight for its rights.

but for this, that it is only an algorythm and highly biased depending who has created it, i will not.

 

[Endie]

Ironically I had to run that through an LLM to translate it.

 

[Enkelas]

Ironically I had to run that through an LLM to translate it.

sorry if my english is not good.
it is not my mother lenguage.

ironically i dont need ai to understand your posts.

 

[Endie]

sorry if my english is not good.
it is not my mother lenguage.

ironically i dont need ai to understand your posts.

One should profoundly hope not.

 

[MongooseMatt]

but it is still a double standard: jam for me but not for thee.

Worth pointing out... we are not luddites, we are not against AI. Getting ready for cancer to be cured any day now...

It is the implementation of AI that is an issue and where it is used. AI tools, albeit on a case-by-case basis, are just fine. They make life better which is, incidentally, the promise of AI.

AI generated art and text... well, I can see that is a big problem (for reasons outlined at least a couple of times in this thread - basically, we want to avoid the 'plug into the machine' aspect of entertainment, because we think it will kill something within humanity).

That is the divide. That is the line.

We reserve the right to revisit this in the future but, as things stand, we can see an issue that does not seem to have any easy resolution at the moment.

 

[Endie]

Worth pointing out... we are not luddites, we are not against AI. Getting ready for cancer to be cured any day now...

It is the implementation of AI that is an issue and where it is used. AI tools, albeit on a case-by-case basis, are just fine. They make life better which is, incidentally, the promise of AI.

AI generated art and text... well, I can see that is a big problem (for reasons outlined at least a couple of times in this thread - basically, we want to avoid the 'plug into the machine' aspect of entertainment, because we think it will kill something within humanity).

That is the divide. That is the line.

We reserve the right to revisit this in the future but, as things stand, we can see an issue that does not seem to have any easy resolution at the moment.

Sure, but I imagine that you can see why it is a little frustrating that you say "No use of AI in the production of art for any content branded for Traveller, free or paid, except for us, the people making the rules, who are allowed to use generative AI in our art workflows. But nobody else, mind."

 

[jwlovell]

Worth pointing out... we are not luddites, we are not against AI. Getting ready for cancer to be cured any day now...

It is the implementation of AI that is an issue and where it is used. AI tools, albeit on a case-by-case basis, are just fine. They make life better which is, incidentally, the promise of AI.

AI generated art and text... well, I can see that is a big problem (for reasons outlined at least a couple of times in this thread - basically, we want to avoid the 'plug into the machine' aspect of entertainment, because we think it will kill something within humanity).

That is the divide. That is the line.

We reserve the right to revisit this in the future but, as things stand, we can see an issue that does not seem to have any easy resolution at the moment.

This is where the implementation of AI is really cheating on your part, because here you are using AI-generated art - you are using AI to create what image you want your artist to then manually re-create. How much human originality is only being used to implement a style by hand - effectively copying the AI image rather than composing it completely from their imagination?

The way I want to implement it, is NOT generating AI art - according to what you are saying about your workflow. Instead of AI, I put my 3d content together, composing the scene, the poses, the lighting - all aspects of my human imagination & vision, and if anyone thinks this doesn't require some degree of creative skill? This takes a great deal of time and understanding of volumetrics, lighting, and material shading to create an image that tries to inspire, tells a story, or enriches the narrative. And by the way, the curation of over a million assets over the years, building a library supporting a wide range of genres, these are the artists I have supported, those who sculpted and modeled all of this content. It is not until after I have this image is when I would use AI, and only use it to change that photoreal CGI image to a different style - sketch, painterly look, or even just to upscale it, or to remove noise, or eliminate uncanny valley by making it even more photorealistic, or change and play around with better, cinematic lighting and color matching, and more.

So, how is this not an even more ethical position of a responsible 'implementation' of AI than your own workflow? Or would you consider this NOT to be generated AI art?

Please understand, I respect that this is your company, your rules. I also greatly appreciate your willingness to discuss this as much as you have, when others might have just given me the old boot and shut me up. I will support, and always have respected and played by the rules set by the different publishing venues such as Roll20, DriveThru, and others.

I also understand how difficult a position you are in, when there are people who are so blindly anti-AI that they have demonstrated a very vocal, vicious streak. I saw that one social media feed actively threatening to boycott and malign Mongoose because a free event was shared by someone doing a good thing - promoting Traveller but because it had an AI image in it - resulted in what I feel was a reprehensible, repulsive, and just flat out ugly self-righteous attack on your company to the point where you had to actually apologize and tell them it wasn't a Mongoose event?

How could I not keep advocating to stand up against that? I can't help but cry foul when I see people, who have demonstrated a high degree of support for the hobby, who have contributed positively to it for years, get attacked publicly and loudly by people who have made no such contribution, who take a position of 'selective' outrage, and a hugely hypocritical stance at that, and take it to such an extreme you publishers feel forced to take stand against anyone using AI, regardless of its implementation?