CENTAURI HUNTING PACK: BROKEN?!

[silashand]

I just dont think theres need nor resaon for it, dunno maybe just allowing centauri to field squadrons of 6 would have been enough.

Actually, if I had my preference that would have been it. Still representative of the "pack" idea (big ships never seemed to fit that idea for me), but not so bad as to be broken, though I have no doubts that any iteration for the Centauri would have caused criticism from those who think the fleet is strong enough. Sorry if I don't agree with that rationale. Every race should have gotten something and just because a fleet is strong already should not preclude them from benefitting as well. The purpose of P&P was not to balance the fleets. It was to give something cool for each race. About my only complaint really is that the Pak'Ma'Ra didn't get any new rules or ships. I was hoping the old Paks carrier would make a comeback since there was already a model for it. Since I never play with named admirals, the book does nothing for my Paks fleet at all. Ah well, I guess...

Cheers, Gary

 

[Alexb83]

That's what Close Blast Doors is for. The Elutarian only has to survive long enought for the squadron to blow up the war level hull of their choice. At that point as a Centauri player, I am already up a substantial number of victory points. Heck, if the range worked out correctly, I might just be able to blow up a Drakh Amu Mothership with all the crits I will do on average.
Dave

Poppycock, I say to you Sir!

Seriously, I have to say you are in knee-jerk mode now. Still, let's have some honest-to-goodness maths applied to the subject.

Let's take a Hunting Pack against a typical War level ship - and we'll completely ignore what the rest of each fleet is doing. Unrealistic, but we'll ignore it.

So, an Elutarian and four Demos go up against a Warlock. This is the combo you are all worried about, right?

The Centauri win the initiative - and why not? We'll ignore the fact that the Warlock alone means the EA have a better initiative bonus.

Six Ballistic Torpedoes go flying across the table to strike the Warlock. On pure averages, 3 will guide accurately to cause 6 points of Damage and 1 critical (which will have double damage).

This is quickly followed by 24 Light Ballistic Torpedoes from the Demos. On average, 12 will hit, causing 4 criticals (which will be single damage).

The Warlock is now down to 57 points of damage after this annihilating attack, and has to contend with a total of 5 criticals.

Only it won't.

Because we have not taken the Interceptors into account. That damage and those criticals will be nicely curtailed.

You _could_ get a 6,6 several times over with this attack but, realistically, the Warlock is going to come out of this attack travelling a bit slower, with less crew and with the odd weapon offline.

And if the Elutarian is CBDing, why not the Warlock as well? After all, the target will be obvious, won't it? This is the point you are making?

We have also not factored in larger Interceptor arrays, Adaptive Armour, Stealth (which will neatly side-step the entire Pack), escorting fighters, and a few kitchen sinks.

Seriously guys, this is one of those things that looks far worse on paper than it really is!

Now, 'nuff said. I won't be debating this one any more until someone damn well gets some miniatures on the table and rolls some dice

Doesn't this quietly ignore the fact that the Warlock gets to fire back a grand total of 6AD of missiles? Nothing else in range, nothing else can bear. Even if it closes on a subsequent turn and the Centauri are obliged to get closer or disengage, the squadron can take it apart from the sides where the missiles and railguns wont get to fire at all - or peel off, come about, and repeat the whole exercise.

How much is Interceptors 4 going to trim that damage down, on average?

Not only that, but 1 point of war is going to equate to more than just the stated 1 raid/4 skirmish, isn't it?

 

[MongooseMatt]

[
Doesn't this quietly ignore the fact that the Warlock gets to fire back a grand total of 6AD of missiles?

Well, no, the stated challenge was that this combination would blast any War level ship I chose (and I don't think the Warlock is particularly special) in the first turn.

My demonstration was that this was blatantly not true.

 

[Da Boss]

Unless, of course, you think the Centauri somehow don't deserve it (which I would not agree with).

I get the feeling from a lot of comments here that the Centauri apprarently don't need anything because they are strong enough anyway. I don't agree that should be a justification, but it is my impression anyway.

Cheers, Gary

something fun and cool would have been nice - like something to do with Bavari :wink:

I just think this is too useful but hey

 

[silashand]

something fun and cool would have been nice - like something to do with Brivari :wink:

Centauri Special Rule: At One with the Universe

The Centauri are renowned for their love of excess, in particular with regard to Brivari. Even in battle, Centauri admirals are known to imbibe huge quantities of the substance, even though it has a tendency to increase their already inflated egos, and hence making them a bit more reckless than would otherwise be prudent.

At the start of the battle, before any dice have been rolled to determine who has the initiative, roll a D6 for each Centauri ship on the table of Raid level or higher. On an unmodified result of 6 the captain of that vessel has achieved Oneness with the Universe (if he hasn't passed out cold, he will undoubtedly do so if he survives the combat). In this state his desire to prove himself and his ship the most worthy in the fleet exceeds his natural sense of self-preservation. If the captain orders All Power to Engines, the ship may attempt to execute a single turn at the end of its movement. However, such is the additional stress placed on the ship that the manouver will overwhelm the inertial dampeners, causing an immediate 2D6 damage to the ship. On a result of 12 (double sixes), the ship also suffers an immediate engine critical and cannot attempt this manouver again during the game. It is assumed the captain has been thrown against the bulkhead and knocked unconscious, allowing his more sober First Officer to take over command in his absence.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Da Boss]

My Good Dear Friend

thats fun

 

[Ripple]

First, I agree, a test should be done.

Second, I agree, on average the squadrons we're talking about will not destroy a war ship outright.

Third, still busted as hell.

Looking at average damage is only one line. You also have to look at the roll up. This is why the beam rewrite caused such issues, the average was similar but the up side was huge. (the down side didn't change as a complete miss was still a miss) If you don't look at what can happen on the roll up, you haven't balanced the effects.

Still not addressed...

All pairs of Centauri ships have their range increased if paired with a longer ranged ship (or one ships gets range for the team). The initiative sink cost for races with a long range front arc are minimal for the first three turns of most scenarios, and the down side can be completely dropped once the advantages fade, as squadrons can break at any time.

 

[Target]

Im just thinkin Elutrian-Darkner combo's, leaving ships a big ball of crit appeals, you only really need to use the hunting pack rule once before the rest of your ships are will in range anyway.
Small games it's going to be great as well, Kutai & Haven squadrons suddenly awesome as 15" gun on the Kutai gives the 50% bonus on everything else, that use to be the downside to them was the range on their secondaries.
Sayin only being able to shoot at one target is the downside- thats the usual strategy- see the best threat & shoot it till it's dead. Splitting fire is the quickest way to lose games. Make sure the ship is dead.
Maybe only 50% of the AD can fire at the extended range just like the refit would improve the rule.

 

[Digger]

Sounds like Chandler is Da Boss's bitch!

You come and bring your Minbari against Digger's Narn and then you'll know what it means to be a bitch boy! Yeah Man! ;-)

 

[Burger]

Centauri Special Rule: At One with the Universe

Best. Rule. Ever!

 

[silashand]

Centauri Special Rule: At One with the Universe

Best. Rule. Ever!

Thanks . I figured most Centauri players would enjoy that one...

Cheers, Gary

 

[Davesaint]

[
Doesn't this quietly ignore the fact that the Warlock gets to fire back a grand total of 6AD of missiles?

Well, no, the stated challenge was that this combination would blast any War level ship I chose (and I don't think the Warlock is particularly special) in the first turn.

My demonstration was that this was blatantly not true.

Matt, you actually made an error. The fleet that was being discusssed was 1 Elutarian and 5 Demos. This fleet has a total of 6 SAP DD missiles, and 30 SAP Single Damage Weapons. On average 3 DD torps will hit, and given the amount of dice thrown by the interceptors, all 3 will be intercepted. It is likely that the Warlock will be down to 1 die for 6's after this. The 15 missiles that hit afterward of which on average, 2 will be intercepted, will do 13 and 13 with 4+ crits. If the crits are any bit significant, the Warlock is hosed. Significant crits would be adrift(1-12 chance IIRC), weapon hit, or most of the vital hits.

The problem Matt isn't the Warlock as the target. What happens if you are shooting against one of the may war hulls that do not have active defenses?

Lets take the Drahk Dra'Vash Crusier for example. Since the only hits that will count will be crits, we can look at this.
Hull 5, which means the Elutarian will hit with 4 Missiles. 1 + will crit, and the Demos will hit with 20 Missiles for roughly 7 crits. So with no additional damage from the crits, the DraVash takes 9/9 and 8 rolls on the crit table. Do you really think that ship is going to be relevant anymore? And the worst thing about it is if the Centauri do win the Initiative, they Drakh might not get a shot at all since they will be out ranged.

How about a league War Level Hull?

Drazi Fireraptor - Hull 6, so it will get hit with 3 DD Precise and 15 single Damage precise. 1/3 will be crits on average so, we get 21/21 with 6 crits, before the damage from the crits is on it. How effective is that ship going to be?

Dave

 

[lastbesthope]

Now, this presents an interesting image. Do people _really_ think I sit at Mongoose HQ, cackling away as I devise new ways to terrorise players?

I've seen you cackling over some 30th floor blueprints from time to time... :lol:

Looking forward to seeing what my White Stars and ISA get to offset my shorter ranged beams now :?

LBH

 

[Burger]

Looking forward to seeing what my White Stars and ISA get to offset my shorter ranged beams now :?

An Enforcer variant?
It could be worse, you could get what the Minbari got! :lol:

 

[lastbesthope]

Never having playen a Gunship (Of which the Enforcer is a variant I believe) I don't see it affecting my fleet choice much :lol:

LBH

 

[Burger]

Poor pak'ma'ra got absolutely nothing

 

[silashand]

Poor pak'ma'ra got absolutely nothing

Yeah, I noticed that. Though it's not strictly true. They did get a named admiral. Though I don't know anyone who ever plays with named characters so that's pretty well useless in most cases as far as I can tell. I was hoping we'd see the return of the old Paks carrier since at the very least there's a model for it already. Ah well.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Greg Smith]

The In sink argument is not quite as clear - first turn all ships fire at 30" - 2nd turn squadron breaks up into a smaller sqaudron and single ships.

Now here's an interesting question. Is a hunting pack always a hunting pack? Can you decide that all of a sudden you need your side guns, so you are just a regular squadron?

 

[Target]

The In sink argument is not quite as clear - first turn all ships fire at 30" - 2nd turn squadron breaks up into a smaller sqaudron and single ships.

Now here's an interesting question. Is a hunting pack always a hunting pack? Can you decide that all of a sudden you need your side guns, so you are just a regular squadron?

Side guns are for cowards :lol:

 

[silashand]

Now here's an interesting question. Is a hunting pack always a hunting pack? Can you decide that all of a sudden you need your side guns, so you are just a regular squadron?

Since the rule specifically states it is a special type of squadron, I would say no. Once declared to be a hunting pack then all associated rules apply until the squadron is broken up. Thus no side/rear weapons at all may be used as long as it remains part of the pack. Just my interpretation based on how the rule is written.

Personally, I would have liked the rule to say that a Hunting Pack has to be comprised of ships of the same class (base and/or variants). It's not like the wolfpacks of WWII Germany worked in concert with their destroyers. Also, it would seem more believable that all ships should have the same movement rate (so as not to slow each other down) and capabilities (understanding the full capabilities of your packmates would seem of paramount importance in working well together). JMO though. This would solve the most egregious abuses of the rule (Elutarian + Demos, etc.) and IMO still be quite characterful.

Cheers, Gary