CENTAURI HUNTING PACK: BROKEN?!
- Thread starter Chandler
- Start date
Ripple said:
Because it was entirely intentional. . .
Davesaint said:
Well, okay, but that isn't a War point.
QFT!!Da Boss said:
I agree with silashand, once declared as a hunting pack, it remains a hunting pack until you break squadron. Since it is defined as a special type of squadron, and there are no rules for changing "squadron type" halfway through a game... the only way to break the hunting pack is to break the squardon.
Other things to consider:
1. If declared as a Hunting Pack, can there ever be a time when it is not classed as such without breaking the squadron? I don't think so, thus once declared a Hunting Pack is always a Hunting Pack and cannot be a normal squadron. As Burger noted, there are no rules for changing squadron types during a game.
2. The rules for Hunting Packs say that all members of the squadron *must* target the same enemy ship/squadron. It does not state that if that criteria is met whether they can or cannot fire other weapons if they wish at other targets as well. I think what it is supposed to mean is that they must target all possible weapons at that target. Only once that criteria is met would I think it possible to fire at something else with out-of-arc weapons.
3. The rule also does not state what constitutes targeting the same enemy. Does that mean if they split their fire and allocate a portion of it to the target that they can send the rest of their AD wherever they please?I would say no since that would appear to go against the express purpose of a Hunting Pack.
4. The rule does not address what a ship may / may not do if it cannot target the same enemy vessel as the rest of the pack. Off the top of my head I would say that if a member of the pack cannot meet this criteria then it cannot fire at all, or at the very least it does not benefit from the Hunting Pack special rule for increased range. After all, if it's shared targeting data that gives them the extra range then obviously such data does that particular ship no good because it's for something it cannot hit anyway. The rule about targeting the same enemy is absolute and there are no criteria listed for breaking it.
5. There is nothing in the rule about side/rear/forward arc weaponry. It says only that all ships must attack the same target. I would read that to be they can do so with any/all weapons that meet that criteria if they so desire.
6. The rule specifies that the Pack uses combined targeting data in order to get the additional range. I would read that to mean that if they actually are allowed to fire out-of-arc weapons at something else that those weapons not gain the additional range bonuses since they are not part of the shared targeting data to begin with.
All in all I think the rule is meant to be read that members of a Hunting Pack must attack the same enemy vessel/squadron with all possible weaponry, thus no splitting fire simply to get the advantage. Anything not in arc or range could probably be allocated as the player sees fit, though as I noted in my previous post I would probably disallow targeting anything other than the specified enemy since the whole purpose of the pack is mass concentration of force on one target. Allowing anything else would lead to abusive play where the Centauri player could intentionally align his ship so as to not have arc of fire to the "target" and still benefit from the increased range.
Anyway, just thoughts.
Cheers, Gary
1. If declared as a Hunting Pack, can there ever be a time when it is not classed as such without breaking the squadron? I don't think so, thus once declared a Hunting Pack is always a Hunting Pack and cannot be a normal squadron. As Burger noted, there are no rules for changing squadron types during a game.
2. The rules for Hunting Packs say that all members of the squadron *must* target the same enemy ship/squadron. It does not state that if that criteria is met whether they can or cannot fire other weapons if they wish at other targets as well. I think what it is supposed to mean is that they must target all possible weapons at that target. Only once that criteria is met would I think it possible to fire at something else with out-of-arc weapons.
3. The rule also does not state what constitutes targeting the same enemy. Does that mean if they split their fire and allocate a portion of it to the target that they can send the rest of their AD wherever they please?I would say no since that would appear to go against the express purpose of a Hunting Pack.
4. The rule does not address what a ship may / may not do if it cannot target the same enemy vessel as the rest of the pack. Off the top of my head I would say that if a member of the pack cannot meet this criteria then it cannot fire at all, or at the very least it does not benefit from the Hunting Pack special rule for increased range. After all, if it's shared targeting data that gives them the extra range then obviously such data does that particular ship no good because it's for something it cannot hit anyway. The rule about targeting the same enemy is absolute and there are no criteria listed for breaking it.
5. There is nothing in the rule about side/rear/forward arc weaponry. It says only that all ships must attack the same target. I would read that to be they can do so with any/all weapons that meet that criteria if they so desire.
6. The rule specifies that the Pack uses combined targeting data in order to get the additional range. I would read that to mean that if they actually are allowed to fire out-of-arc weapons at something else that those weapons not gain the additional range bonuses since they are not part of the shared targeting data to begin with.
All in all I think the rule is meant to be read that members of a Hunting Pack must attack the same enemy vessel/squadron with all possible weaponry, thus no splitting fire simply to get the advantage. Anything not in arc or range could probably be allocated as the player sees fit, though as I noted in my previous post I would probably disallow targeting anything other than the specified enemy since the whole purpose of the pack is mass concentration of force on one target. Allowing anything else would lead to abusive play where the Centauri player could intentionally align his ship so as to not have arc of fire to the "target" and still benefit from the increased range.
Anyway, just thoughts.
Cheers, Gary
Yes and no - some of the points are quite fundemental - ie can you change from being a hunting pack to a normal squadron and can you fire out of mutiple arcs. Most of those covered very well by Silashand and could do with answers before they are tested to avoid testing the wrong thing.........
I'll say one thing for the new hunting pack rule. It's probably generated more traffic on this forum in the last day or two than the forum has seen during the past couple of months. :lol:
Regarding the battle between a Warlock and a hunting pack of an Elutarian plus five Demoses: I fed them to Burger's ACTA Attack Simulator, put the Warlock on CBD, and also put half the Demoses on Concentrate All Firepower (everyone knows the Elutarian is the target for return fire so the Demoses might as well take advantage of the fact, but only half of them are likely to pass the CQ check). I ended up with damage figures pretty much in line with what Matt gave, but this does account for CBD and interceptors on the Warlock. Then I figured that any Centauri player who knows he's up against the EA and their interceptors might prefer to use Darkners rather than Demoses; that pack scored more damage, but still not enough to cripple the Warlock in one salvo. Mind you, the effects of 5 or 6 criticals, one of which is likely to be a vital systems hit, probably mean the Warlock is going to be in trouble.
Regarding whether a hunting pack can fire additional weapons at other targets: the quoted rule says "Ships within a Hunting Pack must all attack the same target in each turn" - note the singular word "target". Strict interpretation of this would imply that the whole pack attacks one and only one target - no splitting of fire, no firing of side weapons. The exception is if the target is an enemy squadron, in which case fire can be split among ships of that squadron.
If pack members can attack other targets, suppose the hunting pack all fire their forward weapons at one target. There's another target to port of the pack. The nearest pack member fires its port weapons at that target - do the rest of the pack now get the range bonus against that target as well?
Regarding the battle between a Warlock and a hunting pack of an Elutarian plus five Demoses: I fed them to Burger's ACTA Attack Simulator, put the Warlock on CBD, and also put half the Demoses on Concentrate All Firepower (everyone knows the Elutarian is the target for return fire so the Demoses might as well take advantage of the fact, but only half of them are likely to pass the CQ check). I ended up with damage figures pretty much in line with what Matt gave, but this does account for CBD and interceptors on the Warlock. Then I figured that any Centauri player who knows he's up against the EA and their interceptors might prefer to use Darkners rather than Demoses; that pack scored more damage, but still not enough to cripple the Warlock in one salvo. Mind you, the effects of 5 or 6 criticals, one of which is likely to be a vital systems hit, probably mean the Warlock is going to be in trouble.
Regarding whether a hunting pack can fire additional weapons at other targets: the quoted rule says "Ships within a Hunting Pack must all attack the same target in each turn" - note the singular word "target". Strict interpretation of this would imply that the whole pack attacks one and only one target - no splitting of fire, no firing of side weapons. The exception is if the target is an enemy squadron, in which case fire can be split among ships of that squadron.
If pack members can attack other targets, suppose the hunting pack all fire their forward weapons at one target. There's another target to port of the pack. The nearest pack member fires its port weapons at that target - do the rest of the pack now get the range bonus against that target as well?
Very good questions silashand, all of which should have been asked and cleared up in playtesting! That is what it's for, no?
Right, going by the rules as written........ which are quite obviously different to what is intended, according to Matt's posts.......
Right, going by the rules as written........ which are quite obviously different to what is intended, according to Matt's posts.......
- All ships must attack the same enemy ship/squadron each turn. There is no mention of only being allowed to attack that target. So as long as you put at least 1AD of one weapon system on the designated target, you are fulfilling the criteria of attacking the designated target. You can then use all other AD and other weapons freely. From Matt's posts this is clearly not what is intended... but it is what is written!
- As long as the designated target is within range of one of your ships, all other ships in the hunting pack gain 50% range on all weapons... even those that are attacking other targets.
- There is no mention of what happens if you cannot attack the designated target, due to it being out of arc or still out of range. Going by the rules as written, all ships within the hunting pack must attack the designated target. Therefore if a member cannot attack the target, logically it is no longer a member of the hunting pack (therefore breaks squardon). This raises the question, what happens if there are no targets at all? Does the hunting pack fall apart, or can you designate "no target"?
- If you can designate "no target" to fix the problem above, why not do this in normal operation? As long as each ship fires 1AD of one weapon at "no target", it gains 50% range on all weapons.
TenaciousB
Mongoose
Burger said:
We haven't forgotten about that either.....
better than 10" range - thats almost Narn like range
Davesaint said:
Yes. . . . But if we can stack a larger force against a smaller one as we wish, we are going to get the results we want
Alexb83 said:
A War point splits down into 2 Raid and 2 Skirmish. A Raid point is then split down to two more Skirmish.
Seriously guys, you have to _read_ the book before you start complaining, rather than taking a single rule you have read on a forum and then blowing it out of proportion!
I have received my copy of the book and read the rule, and as my previous post states, using the rule as written:
- All ships must attack the same enemy ship/squadron each turn. There is no mention of only being allowed to attack that target. So as long as you put at least 1AD of one weapon system on the designated target, you are fulfilling the criteria of attacking the designated target. You can then use all other AD, all other weapons and all other arcs freely to attack other targets.
- As long as the designated target is within range of one of your ships, all other ships in the hunting pack gain 50% range on all weapons... even those that are attacking other targets.
Burger said:
You only get the 50% bonus on weapons attacking the designated pack target.
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
so is that actually written in p&p you only get the bonus on weapons attacking the designated ship or does it not mention this bit.
