CENTAURI HUNTING PACK: BROKEN?!

[silashand]

Seriously guys, you have to _read_ the book before you start complaining, rather than taking a single rule you have read on a forum and then blowing it out of proportion!

Actually Matt, I would just like you to address the questions I posed on the last page of this thread so I know how the rule is meant to be played. For ease of reference, they are:

1. If declared as a Hunting Pack, does that mean it follows only the hunting pack rule and not those for normal squadrons?

2. The rules for Hunting Packs say that all members of the squadron *must* target the same enemy ship/squadron. It does not state that if that criteria is met whether they can or cannot fire other weapons if they wish at other targets as well. Do the hunting pack rules mean that the pack can *only* target a single enemy ship/squadron and any other potential targets in other arcs are ignored?

3. The rule also does not state what constitutes targeting the same enemy. Does that mean if they split their fire and allocate a portion of it to the target that they can send the rest of their AD wherever they please?I would say no since that would appear to go against the express purpose of a Hunting Pack.

4. The rule does not address what a ship may / may not do if it cannot target the same enemy vessel as the rest of the pack. Obviously it does not gain the additional range bonus if allowed.

5. There is nothing in the rule about side/rear/forward arc weaponry. It says only that all ships must attack the same target. I would read that to be they can do so with any/all weapons that meet that criteria if they so desire. Is this correct?

Basically, if I could reword the Hunting Pack rules to the below, is this what you meant it to represent?

A Hunting Pack is a special type of Centauri squadron. It may contain up to six ships, of which none may be higher than Raid level. Once declared a Hunting Pack, each member of the pack must follow all of the associated rules exclusively until it is no longer a member of the pack, i.e. it is destroyed, moves out of squadron coherency, or the player disbands the entire Hunting Pack. The pack is formed for one purpose, to swarm and destroy a single enemy at a time. Any other considerations are irrelevant.

Ships within a Hunting Pack must all attack the same target in each turn with all weapon systems that are in range and within the appropriate fire arc - this will usually be an enemy ship, but may be several ships within the same enemy squadron if preferred. Ships that possess weapons in other arcs may fire them as desired, but they do not gain the bonus to range as outlined below.

Ao long as the target remains within range of one ship within the Hunting Pack, every other ship in the pack may increase the Range of all their weapons by half, as they utilise combined targeting data throughout the squadron. If any ship in the pack cannot target the designated enemy, it cannot fire at all as it obviously is attempting to jockey for a better firing position.

If you can answer the above questions it will remove a lot of the confusion surrounding it.

Cheers, Gary

 

[silashand]

You only get the 50% bonus on weapons attacking the designated pack target.

Actually, that alone answers a lot of the questions. It means even if you split fire, only those AD sent toward the designated target benefit from the additional range. It also hints that firing other weapons is allowed, though am I correct in assuming that ships in a pack must attempt to allocate as much firepower as possible to the designated enemy? If so, that also would clear up much of the confusion.

Cheers, Gary

 

[MongooseMatt]

Actually Matt, I would just like you to address the questions I posed on the last page of this thread so I know how the rule is meant to be played.

Of course!

1. If declared as a Hunting Pack, does that mean it follows only the hunting pack rule and not those for normal squadrons?

A Hunting Pack is a type squadron (like the Pentacon), and so follows all squadron rules unless superceded by the Hunting Pack rules. Think of it as a layer on top.

2. The rules for Hunting Packs say that all members of the squadron *must* target the same enemy ship/squadron. It does not state that if that criteria is met whether they can or cannot fire other weapons if they wish at other targets as well. Do the hunting pack rules mean that the pack can *only* target a single enemy ship/squadron and any other potential targets in other arcs are ignored?

If a ship in the Pack is out of range of an enemy ship, it cannot target it (no more than it could if the enemy ship were behind an asteroid field).

There is nothing to stop you attacking ships in other arcs though.

3. The rule also does not state what constitutes targeting the same enemy. Does that mean if they split their fire and allocate a portion of it to the target that they can send the rest of their AD wherever they please?I would say no since that would appear to go against the express purpose of a Hunting Pack.

Yes - but they don't get the Pack bonus to those other shots. You only get the range boost against the target whose data is being shared.

4. The rule does not address what a ship may / may not do if it cannot target the same enemy vessel as the rest of the pack. Off the top of my head I would say that if a member of the pack cannot meet this criteria then it cannot fire at all. After all, if it's shared targeting data that gives them the extra range then obviously such data does that particular ship no good because it's for something it cannot hit anyway.

It is free to act as if it were in a normal squadron - it cannot take the benefit of being in the Pack, but as the Pack is otherwise a normal squadron, it is free to do its own thing.

5. There is nothing in the rule about side/rear/forward arc weaponry. It says only that all ships must attack the same target. I would read that to be they can do so with any/all weapons that meet that criteria if they so desire. Is this correct?

Yes - but one of those criteria will be that it must meet the basic combat rules, that is, being in range and arc (and LOS!).

So I guess the answer to your _specific_ question is no

6. The rule specifies that the Pack uses combined targeting data in order to get the additional range. I would read that to mean that if they actually are allowed to fire out-of-arc weapons at something else that those weapons not gain the additional range bonuses since they are not part of the shared targeting data to begin with. Is this correct?

Correct.

Hope that helps!

 

[MongooseMatt]

am I correct in assuming that ships in a pack must attempt to allocate as much firepower as possible to the designated enemy?

No requirement for doing so, though only the attacks made against the designated Pack target get the range boost. If you split AD to something else, those shots will _not_ get the boost.

 

[Da Boss]

Battle + Battle = War?

Battle = 1 raid + 2 skirmish?
+
Battle = 3 skirmish?

Or have things changed?

If so, and 1:3 is gone, then you end up with 2 Raid and 4 skirmish, which is still more than you were comparing.

A War point splits down into 2 Raid and 2 Skirmish. A Raid point is then split down to two more Skirmish.

Seriously guys, you have to _read_ the book before you start complaining, rather than taking a single rule you have read on a forum and then blowing it out of proportion!

to be fair this all depends on if you are buying up or down does it not?

so you are both correct................according to the rules (and neither).

if the battle was 2 pt battle then 1 War ship would indeed face 1 Raid and 5 skimish

if its 1 War FAP then Matt is correct.............

if its 4 pt raid then its 1 Raid level ship and 6 Skirmish?

not that anyone would be stupid enough to take a war level ship in this circumstance...........?

 

[Da Boss]

so does this sum up the Hunting Pack rule after the questions above?

A Hunting Pack is a special type of Centauri squadron that is used to inflict punishing damage on their enemies by combining targeting data throughout the squadron. It may contain up to six ships, of which none may be higher than Raid level. In all other respects other than those stated below it acts as a normal squadron.

Ships within a Hunting Pack may all attack the same target in each turn - this will usually be an enemy ship, but may be several ships within the same enemy squadron if preferred.

As long as the target remains within range of one ship within the Hunting Pack, every other ship in the pack may increase the Range of all their weapons that attack the target by half. Weapons that are fired at any other target do not gain the bonus to range.

so bascially its a normal squadron but with a 2 "cool" extras ?

The addiitonal size of the squadron that no one else has access to
the ability to add range to weapons

has no downside over normal squadrons?

oh yeah and we got a new carrier as well - nice one too 8)

 

[Greg Smith]

There is nothing to stop you attacking ships in other arcs though.

Wait, what?

Matt, this seems to contradict what you said a few pages back:

There is one downside that no one seems to be paying attention to. The fact that they all HAVE to fire at the same target (regardless of whether they are using the 50% range). That's six ships all firing at one. Chances are the target ship will be destroyed but how many shots will be wasted?

Thank you, yes, you have nailed one of the main drawbacks of this rule. It is _not_ particularly efficient.

 

[Burger]

so bascially its a normal squadron but with a 2 "cool" extras ?

The addiitonal size of the squadron that no one else has access to
the ability to add range to weapons

has no downside over normal squadrons?

Well one drawback. If the designated target is in range/arc you must put at least 1AD of one weapon system onto it. Other than that, all weapons are free. A very small drawback for such big advantages.

And yes Greg I noticed that too, would like to see which is correct! First one makes more sense but the second one is closer to the rules as written (although neither match the rules as written!).

 

[lastbesthope]

Never having playen a Gunship (Of which the Enforcer is a variant I believe) I don't see it affecting my fleet choice much :lol:

LBH

might be time to start - esp at the tourney - 18" range on the guns could be useful better than 10" range - thats almost Narn like range

I'd rather have 2 WS and split the targets, one WS Gunship is too susceptible to massive damage and instant deadness, or lose one random arc crits.

LBH

 

[lastbesthope]

There is nothing to stop you attacking ships in other arcs though.

Wait, what?

Matt, this seems to contradict what you said a few pages back:

There is one downside that no one seems to be paying attention to. The fact that they all HAVE to fire at the same target (regardless of whether they are using the 50% range). That's six ships all firing at one. Chances are the target ship will be destroyed but how many shots will be wasted?

Thank you, yes, you have nailed one of the main drawbacks of this rule. It is _not_ particularly efficient.

Seconded request for clarification.

LBH

 

[Target]

So is this the rule?
I have a 1 Demos/2 Vorchan pack there is a Thentus 9" away & a G Quan 18" from the furthest Centauri ship.
The Demos targets the G'Quan which means all ion cannons & plasma accelator's are in range but the thentus can still be targeted cause it's within normal range. Do in this case i might put the Vorchans ions at the Thentus & the accelators + all the Demos firepower at the G'Quan.
If there was a centurion /Altarian class ship there as well i could fire out the sides/aft at other targets.

So basically only weapons targeting the pack target get the 50% range & firing as normal for all others.

 

[Foxmeister]

I have a 1 Demos/2 Vorchan pack there is a Thentus 9" away & a G Quan 18" from the furthest Centauri ship.
The Demos targets the G'Quan which means all ion cannons & plasma accelator's are in range but the thentus can still be targeted cause it's within normal range. Do in this case i might put the Vorchans ions at the Thentus & the accelators + all the Demos firepower at the G'Quan.

Don't be silly! You'd put all your firepower into the Thentus because the G'Quan poses no threat!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Target]

I have a 1 Demos/2 Vorchan pack there is a Thentus 9" away & a G Quan 18" from the furthest Centauri ship.
The Demos targets the G'Quan which means all ion cannons & plasma accelator's are in range but the thentus can still be targeted cause it's within normal range. Do in this case i might put the Vorchans ions at the Thentus & the accelators + all the Demos firepower at the G'Quan.

Don't be silly! You'd put all your firepower into the Thentus because the G'Quan poses no threat!

Regards,

Dave

Was going to state that but i thought it was obvious Lol-Thentus very dangerous had one a one above the crippled threshold take a flanking Centurion & Vorchan. Wasn't happy as it was game over for the Narn before that.

 

[Da Boss]

So is this the rule?
I have a 1 Demos/2 Vorchan pack there is a Thentus 9" away & a G Quan 18" from the furthest Centauri ship.
The Demos targets the G'Quan which means all ion cannons & plasma accelator's are in range but the thentus can still be targeted cause it's within normal range. Do in this case i might put the Vorchans ions at the Thentus & the accelators + all the Demos firepower at the G'Quan.
If there was a centurion /Altarian class ship there as well i could fire out the sides/aft at other targets.

So basically only weapons targeting the pack target get the 50% range & firing as normal for all others.

That seems to be how it works - if the Thentus is undamaged I'd stick the Ion Cannons from one Vorchan and the Demos on it and CAF the other and the Demos on the G'Quan. Twin linked guns like hull 5 and the missiles prob crit the G'Quan out of the game.

Wow isn't the Hunting pack really restricted and a liability......... :roll:

 

[silashand]

Wow isn't the Hunting pack really restricted and a liability......... :roll:

To be honest, I was hoping Matt would say at least say that each member of the Hunting Pack had to allocate as much firepower as possible to the one target, range, LoS, and fire arc all being considered in that determination. At least then it would have a downside and be more representative of the combined efforts to destroy/cripple a specific enemy. I also wish the rule said that all members of the pack must have the same speed value since that's what would seem best to me (and eliminate the egregious combinations people have been complaining about).

Ah well, thanks for the answers at least.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Chandler]

I was just wondering why a race which didn't need such a new bonus was given one? Personally I believe the Minbari and Centauri are nearly equals on the tabletop and all they got was the Webb of Death which improves their already brilliant anti-fighter.

As others have already stated in this thread other races have been given even more minor improvements such as the psi-corps 'Psychic Interrogators' which require a ship to be captured to take effect - no easy task in many cases.

Even the interesting 'Start Attack Run!' of the Drazi has a weakness as the ship can crash while trying to do the manouevre but the 'Hunting Pack' seems to have very few weaknesses.

 

[Target]

If what i said is correct, extra range should come at a cost eg 1/2 the AD just like the refit, would make things consistant. Still don't think the smaller Centauri ships needed anything. i'd prefer my bigger ships got something, maybe a SA that removed lumbering or gave my Octurion a bigger range.
What have the rest of races got as my book will take about a week to get to NZ?

 

[Burger]

What have the rest of races got as my book will take about a week to get to NZ?

Well to answer that would require typing half of the book up
Basically the other races got similar to the playtest material. Minbari get Web Of Death which is basically a weak version of the Escort trait on all ships... Shadows got Mind Scream which is a minor edge only against Psi Corps, and "merging" which is very limited applicability... ISA got high speed turns which is All Stop And Pivot without doing All Stop the previous turn and without losing dodge. So as you can see, very, very minor advantages that are "neat tricks" and will occasionally be useful, and really don't add much power to the fleet.

Centauri get squadrons of 6, extra range boost when used... at no cost! A MUCH bigger boost than any other race got!

 

[Da Boss]

revised version

A Hunting Pack is a special type of Centauri squadron that is used to inflict punishing damage on their enemies by combining targeting data throughout the squadron. It may contain up to six ships, of which none may be higher than Raid level. In all other respects other than those stated below it acts as a normal squadron.

Ships within a Hunting Pack must all attack the same designated target each turn (if possible) with at least 1 AD. The designated target will usually be a single enemy ship, but may be several ships within the same enemy squadron if preferred.

As long as the designated target remains within range of one ship within the Hunting Pack, every other ship in the pack may increase the Range of all their weapons that attack the target by half. Weapons that are fired at any other target do not gain the bonus to range.

I think this is what it does / how it works?

 

[Alexb83]

What have the rest of races got as my book will take about a week to get to NZ?

Well to answer that would require typing half of the book up
Basically the other races got similar to the playtest material. Minbari get Web Of Death which is basically a weak version of the Escort trait on all ships... Shadows got Mind Scream which is a minor edge only against Psi Corps, and "merging" which is very limited applicability... ISA got high speed turns which is All Stop And Pivot without doing All Stop the previous turn and without losing dodge. So as you can see, very, very minor advantages that are "neat tricks" and will occasionally be useful, and really don't add much power to the fleet.

Centauri get squadrons of 6, extra range boost when used... at no cost! A MUCH bigger boost than any other race got!

What did Vorlons get?