Carrier-heavy fleet test game

starbreaker

Mongoose
Some of you had asked for a report on how a carrier-heavy force played, so I tried a 1000 point carrier-heavy Al Malik fleet against my usual Hazat opponent today in the Call To Arms scenario, end result being a fairly awful bloodbath. The Al Malik fleet went with 3 carriers, 1 frigate, 21 bombers, and 3 fighters. My opponent fielded his own carrier, 2 destroyers, 2 frigates, 1 explorer - and to my surprise, only 3 bombers. When he placed the carrier on the table I expected a horrific massacre from going too heavy on bombers and too light on fighters (obviously a risk with such an extreme mix, although Al Malik fighters are very good at dogfighting), but with just 3 bombers and otherwise empty hangers the fight was utterly one-sided.

Turn 1 the Hazat fleet advanced at speed while the Al Malik ships cut across their path, winding up with a couple of enemy frigates just within 20" of the Al Malik fleet and none of the Hazat withing 16" light blaster range yet. The 12 deployed Al Malik bombers swept forward toward the prow of the Hazat carrier, well out of strike range but a potential threat for the next turn. When the exchange of fire was all said and done, one Hazat frigate was stricken and drifting from some well-above-average rocket and missile volleys, while 1 of the Al Malik carriers and their frigate had both lost about a third of their damage and suffered engine crits. The Al Malik carriers launched 6 more bombers at the end of the turn, positioned only slightly behind the initial wave.

Turn 2 saw the Hazat plow forward again, closing to well within light blaster range of the wallowing Al Malik ships, but the bombers swarmed onto the prow of the enemy carrier (which was hoarding its own bombers for a close-range launch) and the broadside of one enemy destroyer. The Hazat carrier killed 1 bomber and forced another back to its carrier. The bombers then went - 4 of them unloaded on the enemy destroyer, reducing it exactly zero damage with a moderately lucky strike, while 7 fired into the big carrier, grossly overkilling it (forgot that it was armor 4, rather than 5) and triggering a massive explosion that vaporized the nearby explorer and 8 bombers, forcing several others back to their carriers. The other fire was anticlimactic, with the other Hazat frigate taking serious damage, 3 more bombers being destroyed, and the damaged Al Malik carrier being pushed to over half damage. The carriers launched most of their remaining bombers, leaving me with 3 armed bombers on the table and another 3 or 4 heading back to reload, a process which would have taken several turns no matter how I maneuverd.

My opponent conceded at this point, which I can't really blame him for. Even with my main offensive power decidedly spent, the guns on my ships alone were more than sufficient to drag down a lone (albeit almost untouched - I'd sniped it with a few missile hits while the rockets mauled the frigate) destroyer and a crippled frigate.

Post-game observations:

-Gatling lasers do not actually provide any real defense against bombers. Their limited firing arcs and the poor maneuverability of the ships that carry them make them nearly worthless, even against the pig-slow Al Malik bombers. Even if they do get to fire, they don't auto-penetrate bomber shields, and are highly unlikely to get any kills whatsoever. Throughout the game I was more concerned about them stopping missile and rocket hits than my bombers, leading me to fire on other targets instead of the carrier.

-Al Malik bombers throw enough firepower to make their destruction mandatory. Just 3 of them reliably kill a frigate, and 5 or 6 will kill a destroyer. If you don't have enough fighter superiority to thin them out with dogfights your ship guns must take every shot you can get on them before they reach you, and you should make every effort to avoid their 12" threat range for as long as possible. That isn't difficult with many fleets, but Hazat's light blasters are not the best weapon in the game for this kind of work.

-Carriers, especially the big Hazat carrier, are not worth their points unless they're loaded full, or close to full. Their guns are not worth anything like their point cost, and they aren't as durable as their high damage scores make them appear at first. Armor 4 remains a serious drawback. The exact loadout is a guessing game - bring too many fighters (and the 50% in the starters sets is almost certainly too many) and your offensive capability is too low to justify the base hull cost, but bring too few compared to the number the enemy brings and your bombers will be bled white by dogfights, preventing you from killing enough to justify their cost.

-Launching multiple strikes with any single bomber during a game is going to be a rare occurence for many fleets. Launch and landing rates are quite low, and (even with faster bombers) transit times to and from the carrier are long when you only have 8 turns to play. You can shorten the turnaround time (and carrier save rate) by bringing the carrier(s) close to the enemy, but that's an invitation to boarding actions you cannot expect to win, or simply being shot to death. It's better to regard your bombers as one-shot weapons that might occasionally get a second attack off late in the game. Al Malik bombers are quite fragile and should be used as soon as you can - others are more durable, faster, but throw less AD, and should be better at selecting a target rather than taking whatever you can reach.

-Frigates are marginally the best ship for defending against bombers if you're not using a carrier of your own. They have 25% more actual weapon systems than destroyers, slightly more overall attack dice, and waste less power on overkill than a destroyer broadside does. It isn't a huge edge, and their mediocre armor makes them more vulnerable if a strike does get through, but they do have a clear advantage over any other ship for this role, point for point. A carrier with lots of fighters is an even better defense, but it's also a huge waste of points if your opponent leaves his own carrier home.

-It remains to be seen if a fleet without a carrier can defend itself successfully against an extreme carrier fleet with a heavy (or pure) bomber loadout. My opponent contends that it's impossible, and that a carrier for CAP (CSP, really) duty is mandatory. I think that may be untrue, although you're certainly at a disadvantage if you're having to snipe the bombers to death with guns while his carriers chip away at you with unanswered fire for several turns. If enough of your ships are left when the bomber waves finally thin out you should be able to crush (or better, capture) his carriers in the aftermath, but I'm not sure that's a given, especially against faster, tougher bombers than Al Malik fields. Other house bombers don't hit as hard, but they're harder to kill and harder to avoid.
 
Wonderful, this was a great after battle annalists, I found the individual point by point breakdown and observations invaluable. I'm still trying to get my stuff painted so I can play my first game but the points raised here will be something I will be very interested in. I'm sorry to see my original assumptions about Gatling lasers have been proven true, it seems getting a chance to fire at fighters with them will be a rare thing indeed.
 
well perhaps heres a use for raiders then as you cant split a weapons AD having a raider or 2 could be useful for dropping bombers with their low AD not being wasted in overkill
 
Wait...

Multi-hit from one blaster would required multiple dodges? Hu...

Yes this could be a use for both Raiders and Explorers, though I contend that there still too pricey for any role.
 
godsgopher said:
Wait...

Multi-hit from one blaster would required multiple dodges? Hu...

Yes this could be a use for both Raiders and Explorers, though I contend that there still too pricey for any role.

Multi-hit - "For every successful attack dice this weapon has in an attack, it will deal a number of hits equal to it's multi-hit score"

Dodge - "Whenever a ship suffers a hit, roll one dice"

The key word in those two phrases is "hit". Multi-hit causes multiple hits, dodge dodges each hit. So yes, blasters force multiple dodge rolls.
 
Your Opponent should have loaded the Trafalgar up to the hilt. Have 6 Harpy Bombers and 6 Dagger Fighters which is a good mix. The Daggers could whittle down the Al-Malik Bombers / Fighters.

In a Carrier game he should take the Trafalgar fully loaded to bear. That is its strength.

Also the Trafalgar can bring to bear in P/S Arc 6ad of Multi Hit 3 Heavy Blasters which is good for a Carrier. It can get more fighters out quicker with the Carrier 3 trait. It is a good support ship for a fleet with it's good range weapons.
 
his opponent was unaware that the game was supposed to be a carrier duel. i was under the impression that it was just a 1000point game. even so, the Hazat carrier costs over twice as much as the "light" carriers the other fleets have, and is by no means twice as good. from one of starbreaker and my previous games we had already determined that Al Malik's fighters rape hazat's fighters to the point that i do not see a real reason to even bother with bringing fighters to a game that Starbreaker might have some, unless i am greatly outnumbering his. at which point i would already be spending close to half my points on an "ok" carrier and a bunch of fighters that are only useful at trying to kill his fighters, and then if living, taking down his bombers.
as someone who loved all the other games of Noble Armada i have played, the bomber zerg tactic came close to ruining it for me. this is by no means a condemnation of Starbreaker, or his play style, since we were still exploring all the different aspect of the game.
 
katadder said:
well perhaps heres a use for raiders then as you cant split a weapons AD having a raider or 2 could be useful for dropping bombers with their low AD not being wasted in overkill

Possibly, but I suspect frigates are still more cost efficient for the job. Both raider types (and the same-cost Hazat scout) max out at 2 damage over any given arc of fire, which is barely enough to to penetrate a single bomber's shielding and force a single dodge save. Their accurate lasers give decent odds of getting both those hits, but it still works out to less than a 2/3rds chance of a kill on even the most fragile bombers.

They might prove useful for sniping shieldless bombers that have survived a light volley from a frigate earlier in the turn. The Li Halan and Decados frigates really don't produce much in the way of overkill when gunning for bombers, especially ones with high hull ratings. They also work pretty well for forcing dodge saves on multiple fighters, which lack shields - their saves are very good so you won't get many kills this way, but it could swing things just enough to give your own fighters combat superiority in later dogfights.

Note that Li Halan frigates are the worst in the game at hunting bombers, since they lack a turret weapon and therefore have no chance at getting an extra kill each turn. OTOH, they do handle high hull bombers better than most, due to accuracy on all their weapons.

Your Opponent should have loaded the Trafalgar up to the hilt. Have 6 Harpy Bombers and 6 Dagger Fighters which is a good mix. The Daggers could whittle down the Al-Malik Bombers / Fighters.

Yes, as I said, carriers just aren't worth taking without filling the hangers. To be fair, I think ender was traumatized by the amazing dogfight success of my fighters in a previous game. I think I managed a 4:1 kill ratio and then went on to murder his bombers, which has him convinced (with some justification) that Al Malik fighters aren't worth dogfighting.

Myself, I'm jealous of the huge guns on the Trafalgar, although I do think it needs to hang back and exploit its range advantage. That slows down the reload-relaunch cycle because the bombers have to cover more distance - but then they are 50% faster than the Al Malik designs, and much more resistant to being sniped with guns while flying around. Hull 5 and a 4+ dodge is tougher than some ships when it comes down to it - pity they only have 2AD, but everything has its cost.
 
well if you have the range hang back and hit bombers 1st. ok you cant split weapons on them but most ships should be able to get a turret and a broadside on some bombers and the bigger ships have multiple turrets. the bombers dodge is never very good so the main guns should drop bombers. if your opponent is bomber heavy he then wont have alot to retaliate.

I have to agree looking closer that the trafalgar doesnt seem to match upto the light carriers especially as you have to buy the bomber flights for carriers. but then it can beat them if you put it in the middle of 2 light carriers due to better weapons.
 
Maybe you don't have to buy bombers for the Tafalgar, or at least not many of them. I'm not sure how I'd deal with a 1000 point Hazat carrier fleet that brought two carriers and two dozen fighters - you'd swamp any enemy fighters/bombers with dogfighting easily, never have to worry about reloading, and you start with 48 AD worth of slug guns to go murder whichever 2-3 ships the carriers blow the shields off of each turn. That combo would only run 880 points, so you could afford two scouts to guide those big carrier guns and poke criticals into ships with their lasers once the shields are down. You'd want to play keep-away to avoid boarding, but it would be a brave (and lucky) fleet that could plow through all those fighters in the face of 12 AD of heavy blasters per turn.
 
Wow. That game sounds really scary, rofl. I'm glad to hear that the bomber fleet really held it's own, but it might seem that it did TOO well.

I hope it doesn't turn into a carrier arms race. Suddenly Starcraft? hehe. However, the only game I played where a carrier was involved I had no trouble shooting down the fighters and heavy fighters as they came at me. I wasn't overwhelmed with them tho..

"Mr. President, we must not allow a CARRIER GAP!"
 
Just a couple of counterpoints. Not disagreeing with you, just offering an alternative viewpoint. :)

starbreaker said:
Al Malik bombers throw enough firepower to make their destruction mandatory.

At Hull 3, dodge 5+, they aren't most difficult to kill. And dogfighters will make mincemeat of them.

-Carriers, especially the big Hazat carrier, are not worth their points unless they're loaded full, or close to full. Their guns are not worth anything like their point cost, and they aren't as durable as their high damage scores make them appear at first. Armor 4 remains a serious drawback.

If you compare light carriers to frigates, they are actually pretty good. They come with an extra shield, more than 50% more damage and pretty close to the same firepower. On top of that you get command (in some fleets), which is a force multiplier.

-Launching multiple strikes with any single bomber during a game is going to be a rare occurence for many fleets.

Yep. Bombers actually have to pretty lucky to earn their points back in my experience. And sometimes it comes down to whether the enemy has fighters or not.

-It remains to be seen if a fleet without a carrier can defend itself successfully against an extreme carrier fleet with a heavy (or pure) bomber loadout.

It could be a interesting fight. Clever manuevering and maintaining range would be the order of the day.
 
the problem you have in NA ACTA is you cannot split the AD from your weapons when targeting anything so each fighter/bomber takes a full weapons battery or turret etc. alot of firepower to take down the threat but IMO worth it.
 
If you compare light carriers to frigates, they are actually pretty good. They come with an extra shield, more than 50% more damage and pretty close to the same firepower. On top of that you get command (in some fleets), which is a force multiplier.

They also cost 50% more than a frigate. Point for point, they're one of the worst possible ways to get guns on the table, and they're a big fat boarding target too. They are not "pretty good" at all unless their fighters are accomplishing something - even if that "something" is just drawing enemy fire away from the ships in the fleet for two or three turns.

the problem you have in NA ACTA is you cannot split the AD from your weapons when targeting anything so each fighter/bomber takes a full weapons battery or turret etc. alot of firepower to take down the threat but IMO worth it.

Which is another reason frigates make relatively efficient fighter defense ships. Point for point, they can shoot more targets effectively, with average damage being enough to force a save or two on a bomber without overkilling.

-It remains to be seen if a fleet without a carrier can defend itself successfully against an extreme carrier fleet with a heavy (or pure) bomber loadout.

It could be a interesting fight. Clever manuevering and maintaining range would be the order of the day.

Maneuver is always important, usually the key to victory. Your signature says you're a playtester - why don't you describe a few of the games you tried to test "conventional" fleet versus bomber-heavy ones? You must have played quite a few to test degenerate fleet design before publication.[/quote]
 
One additional point to make - this is fine when considering bombers with micro-torpedoes. However, bombers with meson tubes are a completely different proposition - if they go after a ship with it's shields intact, they will have problems - most bombers with meson tubes don't have enough AD to get through a frigates shields, let alone anything heavier, they'd need help to get the shields down in the first place. This means that they become close support to a fleet, not a super-weapon in their own right.
 
A Light Al Malik / Li Halan Carrier gets + 1 Command. In the game that is quiet powerful. That is worth the extra points alone. As anyone who plays CTA long time can attest to.

Lets see

Hawkwood Malcolm compared to Hawkwood Hornet.

Down side - Slower, 1 less 45 deg turn,
Extras - 1 extra Shield, 12 extra damage, Carrier 2, Ramming up by 2
Same - Troops and same weapon mix.

Decados Hyram compared to Decados Mantis

Downside - Looses 2 medium Blasters P/S but gains 2 Light Blasters in P/S, Looses Turreted Medium Blasters, Lumbering
Extras - Carrier 2, Turretted Gremlin Gun (nasty weapon), 1 extra Shield, 12 extra Damage, Ramming up by 2.
Same - Troops, Speed, Turns.

Al-Malik Asim compared to Al-Malik Spider.

Downside - Looses 2 AD P/S Rockets, Looses Agile
Extras - Command + 1, Carrier 2, Think Machine, Ramming up by 2, 1 extra Shield, 12 extra Damage
Same - Speed, Turns, Troops

Li-Halan Ijiri compared to Li-Halan Iskati

Downside - Looses 2 AD P/S Medium lasers
Extras - 1 extra 45 deg turn, 1 Shield, 12 extra damage, Ramming up by 2, Command + 1, Carrier 2, Turreted 2AD Medium Lasers
Same - Speed, Troops


Did not include the Hazat Trafalgar in this calculation as it is a bigger carrier, as we are on about the Light Carriers.

Looking at the pros and cons of a Carrier vs a Frigate. They look worth the extra 50 points to me. On their own they are good ships as you can see.
 
Looking at the pros and cons of a Carrier vs a Frigate. They look worth the extra 50 points to me. On their own they are good ships as you can see.

No sale - you're trying to compare 100 points of ship versus 150 as though they'd face off one on one. Anytime you want play a game with me using a 3:2 ratio of frigates versus empty 8-hanger carriers for stakes, I'll be happy to take your money. Besides, frigates are just escorts, the real gunline ships in a fleet are the destroyers. Want to play 4 empty carriers against 3 destroyers? Don't think you'll be continuing to claim carrier guns are worth their points after that one, and that's giving you a 60 point edge.

Without something in their hangers, carriers are a lousy buy - which is as it should be. Even the Command ships aren't that good, although they're less awful that the rest - this isn't B5 where boresight arcs made initiative king.

One additional point to make - this is fine when considering bombers with micro-torpedoes. However, bombers with meson tubes are a completely different proposition - if they go after a ship with it's shields intact, they will have problems - most bombers with meson tubes don't have enough AD to get through a frigates shields, let alone anything heavier, they'd need help to get the shields down in the first place. This means that they become close support to a fleet, not a super-weapon in their own right.

They're heavy fighters not bombers, but you're right, they do require assists from their ships to function, and the carriers by themselves may not be able to reliably open up targets for them every turn. The Decados has the firepower to do the job if it can in range, but with Lumbering and speed 8 your opponent can avoid 16" (much less 12") without much effort if he plans ahead a bit. The Li Halan lacks multihit weapons for efficient shield burnouts, and even with accurate it has problems dropping four shields on a single target. OTOH, you can afford one frigate in 1000 points the same way my Al Maliks did, and between that and three carriers you should be able to open up at least one victim per turn, maybe two. You could also easily drop a few heavies in place of standard fighters to upgrade the frigate to a destroyer for more guns, and bothe fleets do have fighters with multiple-AD slug guns, allowing them to help strike at shield-burned targets with some effect. The short range on meson tubes and slug guns may force unacceptable crowding, though.

The other big drawback is that you need to hold off firing the fighters until later in the phase, after the ships have done their work. That gives the enemy more time to shoot back, where microtorp bombers can and will fire as soon as possible, removing guns from the table right away.

Still, I think you can play a carrier-swarm fleet with heavy fighters, it just isn't quite as scary a prospect to face. You're probably better off using a more balanced fleet, but that may be true for anyone. My initial success with Al Malik was due more to surprise than anything else, I think. With smart maneuvering and careful target selection, gunship or balanced fleets should be able to wear down the bomber/heavy fighter waves at an acceptable rate.
 
starbreaker said:
why don't you describe a few of the games you tried to test "conventional" fleet versus bomber-heavy ones?

I can't recall specifics. It involved maneuvering and targeting of bombers to keep their numbers down.
 
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