Black Stone

[Horvigabi]

Hi, I am a Conan fan from Hungary. And i have some questions. And yes, it's about monster-grapple. I play with the second edition, so please answer according to the 2nd ed. rules.
If a monster with Improved Grab gets a hold on a character, when can the monster use its special attacks (constrict, crush, etc.)? I think, on its next turn.
But in the Bestiary there are some monsters with a "then". For example the Ape (p. 128-129): "Improved Grab: To use this ability, the ape must hit with a claw attack. If it gets hold on the target succesfully, it can then crush."
So what does "then" mean in this situation?
1. Later, on its next turn.
2. In the same turn, immediately after it gets a hold. (claw attack - succesful grapple check - crush)
And if the right answer is the second, is it apply to every monster with Improved Grab or just to the monsters with "then"? (For example the Crawler Improved Grab text on page 19 is just: "To use this ability, the crawler must hit with its bite attack.")
And there is the scorpions on page 148. Its Imroved Grab text is clear enough. It can attack right away. But this animal is a special case, or this is what "then" (or every Improved Grab) means? And the scorpion text writes about AOO: "...It can then automatically choose to make a free constrict or sting attack against that target, suffering no attack of opportunity for doing so." Why this "suffering no AOO?" anyway? Why would its attack provoke an AOO?
And it seems that some monster is capable to gets a hold on multiple characters. (See shark on page 151.: "Chew: A shark can inflict bite damage on all victims held in its maw as a free action once per round."
So while a shark is grapple with someone, it can bite another character, use its Improved Grab and start a grapple with him too?
How do I know which monsters are capable of this "multi grab"? And how many characters have in its grab? I think the monsters with tentacles are capable of. But not every monster have such abilities, like chew. p. 46 Giant Octopus. Let's say it has one character in the grab of one of its tentacles. But there are "free" attackers. It must decide:
-use constrict on its victim OR
-attack another one with a tentacle to grab him too. Is this right?
And if a monster have more than one character in its grab, can it use the constrict to damage all or it must choose one?

 

[Kev]

I may not be the best person to address your questions (some of my answers may lean more toward opinion than 100% fact) but as no one else has given you a response yet, here goes....

If a monster with Improved Grab gets a hold on a character, when can the monster use its special attacks (constrict, crush, etc.)? I think, on its next turn.

I think you're right. From what I read, most monsters with the Improved Grab ability can only use it after making one or more successful attacks. Most, if not all, special attacks are made in place of a creature's regular attacks. Thus, if a creature has already used its regular attacks in order to trigger the Improved Grab ability, it doesn't have them available on the current round to be replaced by its special attack. I hope that makes sense.

But in the Bestiary there are some monsters with a "then". For example the Ape (p. 128-129): "Improved Grab: To use this ability, the ape must hit with a claw attack. If it gets hold on the target succesfully, it can then crush."
So what does "then" mean in this situation?
1. Later, on its next turn.
2. In the same turn, immediately after it gets a hold. (claw attack - succesful grapple check - crush)
And if the right answer is the second, is it apply to every monster with Improved Grab or just to the monsters with "then"? (For example the Crawler Improved Grab text on page 19 is just: "To use this ability, the crawler must hit with its bite attack.")

The first answer (later, on its next turn) is the correct one. Improved Grab only allows a creature to make a Grapple check as a free action as part of a regular attack that has already hit. In and of itself, it does not allow the use of any special attacks though it does make it possible for the creature to use those special attacks in subsequent rounds. Using the Crawler as an example, if it hits successfully with its bite attack then the Improved Grab ability kicks in allowing it to initiate a Grapple as a free action on the same round. In following rounds, assuming it can maintain the Grapple, it can use its Constrict special attack instead of its bite. I must admit, though, that the wording in the write up is somewhat vague and could very well be interpreted differently.

And there is the scorpions on page 148. Its Imroved Grab text is clear enough. It can attack right away. But this animal is a special case, or this is what "then" (or every Improved Grab) means? And the scorpion text writes about AOO: "...It can then automatically choose to make a free constrict or sting attack against that target, suffering no attack of opportunity for doing so." Why this "suffering no AOO?" anyway? Why would its attack provoke an AOO?

I would argue that this animal is, indeed, a special case. I base that on the fact that it uses its Dexterity bonus instead of Strength bonus for Grapple checks implying that the claw/constrict/sting action is quickly done in order to subdue prey efficiently. I don't really know why the point was made that the free attack provokes no AoO. Someone wiser than I will have to answer that one for you.

And it seems that some monster is capable to gets a hold on multiple characters. (See shark on page 151.: "Chew: A shark can inflict bite damage on all victims held in its maw as a free action once per round."
So while a shark is grapple with someone, it can bite another character, use its Improved Grab and start a grapple with him too?

No, I don't think normal sharks can bite/chew mulitple targets. That whole "chew on one target while simultaneously biting and grabbing another" just doesn't sound too plausible. Reading the description of the Great Shark on pg. 56-7, I would argue that this multiple bite/chew situation should only apply to them (with prey of the appropriate size) and only if they happen to bite two or more targets in the same round (as part of "drawing its target fully into its mouth without so much as grazing it with its teeth until it is far too late."). This would most likley have to be the GM's call, I should think.

How do I know which monsters are capable of this "multi grab"? And how many characters have in its grab? I think the monsters with tentacles are capable of. But not every monster have such abilities, like chew. p. 46 Giant Octopus. Let's say it has one character in the grab of one of its tentacles. But there are "free" attackers. It must decide:
-use constrict on its victim OR
-attack another one with a tentacle to grab him too. Is this right?
And if a monster have more than one character in its grab, can it use the constrict to damage all or it must choose one?

Well, as there really isn't any "multi grab" ability, this should be pretty straightforward. With a creature like the shark: one mouth, thus one bite attack/Improved Grab (if it doesn't already have prey in its mouth) or one Chew attack (if it does). With a giant octopus: eight tentacles, so any combination of attacks/Improved Grabs and Constricts totaling eight or less. If it has some foes grappled and others not, it can, in the same round, constrict those in its grasp AND attack others with its free tentacles in an attempt to grab and constrict them as well.

I sure hope all that helps. As I said, I'm no great authority on the rules. These're just my common-sense interpretations of them as they're written. In the end, do what makes the most sense to you.

 

[Horvigabi]

Thanks Kev, you are very kind! If you don't mind, I have one more problem. What is your opinion about this: when the improved grab happen?
Let's see the Giant Bat on page 41. To use its improved grab, it must hit with a bite. Its full attack is one bite (+7) and two claws (+1). But I don't know if it can change the order of its attack. Let's see some example!
It can't change the attack order:
- It succesfully bites his target, roll a free grapple check and gets a hold on his target. Turn ends. No claw attacks.
- It bites his target, gets a hold, AND does the two claw attacks with a -4 penalty, because it grapples.
And what if it doesn't gets a hold? It fails his roll. Bite hits, but unsuccessfull grapple check. I think it can contiune with its claw attacks, so its turn doesn't end after the failed grab attempt.
But if it can change the attack order:
- It attacks with two claws (+1), then bites (+7). If it hits with bite, it can try the grab.
And if my first example is the right answer (bite, grab, turn ends), then let's see the Grey Ape on p. 57. To use the Imp. Grab, it must hit with a claw. Full attack: two claws (+10) and one gore (+5). So if it can't change the attack order, and the successfull grab ends its turn, I think it capable of this:
- First an attack with a claw. It hits, but it doesn't try the grab. Then it attacks with the other claw, hits, tries the grab successfully. Turn ends.
> Or if the second example is right, turn dosen't ends, and it can gore with a -4 penalty<

 

[Kev]

What is your opinion about this: when the improved grab happen?

The Improved Grab happens immediately after a successful attack that triggers it, assuming the GM wants the creature to use the grab against that target.

Let's see the Giant Bat on page 41. To use its improved grab, it must hit with a bite. Its full attack is one bite (+7) and two claws (+1). But I don't know if it can change the order of its attack.

It can the change the order of its attack. During a full attack action, the order in which those attacks occur is determined by the GM.

It attacks with two claws (+1), then bites (+7). If it hits with bite, it can try the grab.

That's correct.

And what if it doesn't gets a hold? It fails his roll. Bite hits, but unsuccessfull grapple check. I think it can contiune with its claw attacks, so its turn doesn't end after the failed grab attempt.

You're correct again: the creature's combat round does not end with a successful (or unsuccessful) grab attempt as long as it still has unused attacks and is taking a full attack action.

...let's see the Grey Ape on p. 57. To use the Imp. Grab, it must hit with a claw. Full attack: two claws (+10) and one gore (+5)...First an attack with a claw. It hits, but it doesn't try the grab. Then it attacks with the other claw, hits, tries the grab successfully...turn dosen't ends, and it can gore with a -4 penalty

Correct.

I hope that helps clarify thing for you.

 

[Horvigabi]

Thanks again! No more problems.

 

[Phobos]

Could I ask why the post is titled "Black Stone"?

 

[Horvigabi]

"The Black Stone" is a classic short story by Robert E. Howard, first published in the November 1931 issue of Weird Tales.

The story opens with the unnamed narrator being gripped with curiosity by a brief reference to the Black Stone in the book Nameless Cults, aka The Black Book, by Friedrich von Junzt. He researches the artifact but finds little further information. The ancient (though its age is debated) monolith stands near to the village of Stregoicavar ("meaning something like Witch-Town") in the mountains of Hungary.

I'm from Hungary. So I tought the Black Stone title will be more interesting than the regular "monster grapple question".

 

[Phobos]

I knew the story The Black Stone, but I couldn´t see the connection with the post, Thanks for answer

 

[Kev]

Yeah, I was kind of wondering about the title of the post myself. Thanks for spelling it out for me. It's been a while since I read that particular REH story so, like Phobos, I didn't make the connection.