Billion Credit Squadron II

[barnest2]

I agree. The radiation shielding should be purely against the radiation hit...

 

[smiths121]

I agree. The radiation shielding should be purely against the radiation hit...

Iocarno dealt with this on page 2 of the thread!
Summary very expensive upgrade so ruling it affects all the damage from nuclear torps, missiles, particle beams and fusion.

I tend to lean towards affecting the radiation hit only. But that does make it an expensive upgrade just to stop the radiation hit when (not if) your armour drops below 8.

The rules suggests at the top of the paragraph that it substract 6 from meson radiation hits when describing the effects of the shielding, but fails to mention meson gun in the mechanics. Does not mention the tech level the shielding is available at either, which has a profound affect on the TL life of the particle beam barbette, depending on when you introduce it.

Terrible paragraph of rules we all missed in the High Guard errata review.

Using Iocarno's interpretation, one upshot (different from CT and MGT I think), is it effectively removes the particle beam barbette as an effective weapon earlier in the tech level path. Also means you need to shoot fighters with bays as well, but you would not need shoot fighters as there worth has just disappeared to a certain extent.

My interpretation is it subtracts -6 from all radiation hits including meson guns, this makes the shielding the only negative on meson gun radiation hits in Core Rule and High Guard combat, and justifies the high price (2.5 times the price of reflec). I do like some of the effects of the other way though - certainly in 2 minds about the TL effect.

In terms of the battle - I think it is all over, and the Yamato has pipped it. Even defensive fire weapons can cause hits on the other 2 ships now (each triple beam laser turret will do about .6 of a hit against armour 4). I was impressed by the torpedoes, I have never seen them used before or used them they look quite effective an worth some thought. Rail Gun + Torps looks a good combo at this price point.

 

[hector]

Thing is, the Yamato needs to get up close to the other ship that's capable of hurting her; otherwise she only has a particle beam bay and a couple of beam lasers versus the very high yield particle beams (which begs the question why the Yamato is flying away from the Black Swan - she's safer the closer she gets). On the other hand, if she does get into short range, those rails will probably maul whatever they hit. Neither side can run away any more.

 

[dalamar981]

I was in the middle of writing how i disagree, and that Radiation shielding does add 6 to the armor against particle, fusion, nuclear weapons.

In doing so I think I discovered the reason why it doesn't. The whole sticking point of the rule is "radiation damage". in standard space combat there is no such thing as radiation damage. So I did a search in the highguard PDF. I found page 79. There is a section about Radiation attacks, and a Radiation Damage table. These to sections explain why Meson weapons are not included in the armor and radiation damage sentence.

In short Radiation shielding is for capital ship combat and has no use in the standard Space combat rules except if you want to harden your entire crew and not just your bridge with 1000 rad absorption.

There is no Radiation damage in Standard space combat.

 

[smiths121]

I was in the middle of writing how i disagree, and that Radiation shielding does add 6 to the armor against particle, fusion, nuclear weapons.

I hate it when that happens - particularly if I am about to shoot my mouth off

In short Radiation shielding is for capital ship combat and has no use in the standard Space combat rules except if you want to harden your entire crew and not just your bridge with 1000 rad absorption.

There is no Radiation damage in Standard space combat.

Think that explains the use of the term "Radiation Damage", which is part of the merry confusion this option as caused. As High Guard is just an extension of Core Rulebook space combat, do not think using -6 on the crew radiation damage table is stretching too far.

Given the high cost - radiation shielding has got to have the -6 affect against meson guns. Otherwise there is no defense against the meson flicker (nasty weapon, goes against the crew and the computer not the ship) in the game.

 

[smiths121]

Sorry forgot to mention, it is clearly hard work doing the GM'ing of this and Iocarno is doing a great job.

I think we should continue using the -6 for Radiation Shielding all the way through now - a sort of "We've started, so we will finish".

We should do a debate on things such as Radiation Shielding after the event. When we do tournament 3, hopefully more players - we should use 2 GMs.

 

[dalamar981]

do not think using -6 on the crew radiation damage table is stretching too far.

Given the high cost - radiation shielding has got to have the -6 affect against meson guns. Otherwise there is no defense against the meson flicker (nasty weapon, goes against the crew and the computer not the ship) in the game.

I disagree, if you read the page I stated the reason Rad shielding doesn't help against meson is because it is in the armor. Meson weapons detonate inside the ship bypassing the armor. "Radiation Damage" does not = "Radiation Hit"
you only use radiation Damage with Barrages and Spinal Weapons.

Now it will absorb 1000 Rads of crew radiation, but it is not worth the cost.

On a side note there is a way to protect against meson and meson flicker weapons. per page 47 of HighGuard.

"Meson screens reduce radiation damage from meson guns and
meson flicker weapons. Radiation hits from these weapons
suffer a –DM equal to twice the active number of screens."

The first sentence is for Capital ships. The second is for all meson screens at all levels. so 2 screens active -4d6+skill lvl, and -4 DM on crew hit vs flicker weapons.[/quote]

 

[locarno24]

Turn 9

Manouvre Phase
Amythest
Adrift

Yamato
2 Thrust used to open range on Amythest, 1 Thrust reserved for manouvre phase

Black Swan
3 Thrust used to increase range from Yamato

Net change:
Amythest now Short Range, 3 Thrust to Close Range
11 Thrust to bring Black Swan to Medium Range



Combat Phase

u]Amythest[/u]

Firing on Yamato

Yamato Evading – 3,6:11 (Success)
Very High Yield Particle Bay Mount
Range Short (-1), Fire Control (+1), Gunner Skill (+2), Evading (-2) : DM +0
Rolls 2,4: 6 (Miss)

Long Range Fusion Bay Mount
Range Short (-2), Fire Control (+1), Gunner Skill (+2) : DM+1
Rolls 4,5: 10 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,2,2,4,6: 15 Damage
Armour 9+6 – No Damage

Long Range Fusion Bay Mount
Range Short (-2), Gunner Skill (+2) : DM+0
Rolls 3,6: 9 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,1,2,4,5: 13 Damage
Armour 9+6 – No Damage

Yamato

Fires on Black Swan

Particle Bay Mount
Range Long (0), Fire Control (+1), Gunner Skill (+2), Sensor Lock (+1) : DM+4
Rolls 3,6: 13 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,3,3,3,4,6: 20 Damage
Armour 4 – 16 Damage, Three Single Hits
Location Roll – 1,1: Hull
-1 Hull
Location Roll – 5,5: Manouvre Drive
-1 Thrust
Location Roll – 2,3: Fuel
Causes a minor fuel leak of 1d6 tons per hour.



Point Defence by Black Swan

Beam Turret #1, Laser #1 vs Bomb-Pumped Laser Torpedo - Miss
Beam Turret #2, Laser #1 vs Bomb-Pumped Laser Torpedo – Hit
Beam Turret #2, Laser #2 vs Bomb-Pumped Laser Torpedo – Hit
(Damaged) Pulse Laser #1 Laser #1 vs Nuclear Torpedo – Miss
(Damaged) Pulse Laser #1 Laser #2 vs Nuclear Torpedo – Miss


Sandcasters
Insufficient Reactions

Bomb-Pumped Laser Torpedo #1
Target 7+
Rolls 2,6: 8 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,1,2,3,3,3: 13 Damage
Armour 6 – 7 Damage, Two Single Hits
Location Roll – 1,4: Fuel
Destroys 30% of stored fuel.
Location Roll – 1,3: Manouvre Drive
-50% Thrust


Nuclear Torpedo #1
Target 7+
Rolls 1,3: 4 (Miss)

Nuclear Torpedo #2
Target 7+
Rolls 1,2: 3 (Miss)

Nuclear Torpedo #3
Target 7+
Rolls 2,3: 5 (Miss)


Fires on Amythest

Railgun Barbette
Gunner Skill (+2) : DM+2
Rolls 2,5: 9 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 3,4,4: 11 Damage
Armour 5 – 6 Damage, Two Single Hits
Location Roll – 4,6: Manouvre Drive
-1 Hull
Location Roll – 1,3: Power Plant
Power Plant Bulkhead Breached

****

“Captain! Amythest's ablative hull just collapsed!”

*****


Railgun Barbette
Gunner Skill (+2), Damage (-2): DM+0
Rolls 1,6: 9 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,3,5: 9 Damage
Armour 5 – 4 Damage, Single Hit
Location Roll – 4,5: Bay (Long Range Fusion Gun #2)
Fusion Gun Bulkhead Breached

Railgun Barbette
Gunner Skill (+2): DM+2
Rolls 4,5: 9 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 2,3,6: 11 Damage
Armour 5 – 6 Damage, Two Single Hits
Location Roll – 6,5: Power Plant
Power Plant Damaged
Location Roll – 3,3: Structure
-1 Structure.

Railgun Barbette
Gunner Skill (+2): DM+2
Rolls 3,6: 11 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,3,5: 9 Damage
Armour 5 – 4 Damage, Single Hit
Location Roll – 1,2: Jump Drive
All attempts at Jump suffer a –2 DM to Engineering (jump) checks.

Railgun Barbette
Gunner Skill (+2), Damage (-2): DM+0
Rolls 2,4: 6 (Miss)

Railgun Barbette
Gunner Skill (+2): DM+2
Rolls 1,5: 8 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 4,5,5: 14 Damage
Armour 5 – 9 Damage, Double Hit
Location Roll – 3,3: Structure
-2 Structure.

Railgun Barbette
Gunner Skill (+2): DM+2
Rolls 1,6: 9 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,4,6: 11 Damage
Armour 5 – 6 Damage, Two Single Hits
Location Roll – 2,3: Bay (Very High Yield Particle Beam)
Particle Beam Bulkhead Breached
Location Roll – 2,4: Structure
-1 Structure.

Railgun Barbette
Gunner Skill (+2), Damage (-2): DM+0
Rolls 1,6: 7 (Miss)




Black Swan

Very High Yield Particle Bay Mount
Range Long (0), Fire Control (+1), Gunner Skill (+2) : DM+3
Rolls 5,6: 14 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,2,3,5,5,6: 25 Damage
Armour 9+6 – 10 Damage, Double Hit
Location Roll – 1,2: Sensors
Sensors are disabled preventing the ship from making Sensors checks and on making attacks on targets beyond Adjacent range.

Long Range Fusion Bay Mount
Range Long (0), Fire Control (+1), Gunner Skill (+2) : DM+3
Rolls 3,5: 11 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,2,3,4,5: 15 Damage
Armour 9+6 – No Damage

Long Range Fusion Bay Mount
Range Long (0), Gunner Skill (+2) : DM+2
Rolls 2,4: 8 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 3,4,4,5,5: 21 Damage
Armour 9+6 – 6 Damage, Two Single Hits
Location Roll – 1,3: Manouvre Drive
Drive Disabled.
Location Roll – 5,5: Manouvre Drive
-1 Hull.





Ship Action Phase

Amythest

Repaired Manouvre Drive

Yamato

Failed Mechanic Check to Repair Sensors

Black Swan

Repaired Fuel Leak (lost 31% of fuel)
Failed to Increase Initiative

Status:
Yamato -16/26 Hull Damage, Armour 9, Double Hit to Sensors, Triple Hit to Manouvre Drive, Triple Hit to Fuel, Single Hit to Railgun Barbettes #5 & #8
Amythest – 4/22 Structural Damage, Armour 5, Single Hit to Jump Drive, Single Hit to Power Plant, Triple Hit to Fuel Tank, Triple Hit to Sensors, Single Hit to Countermeasures, Single Hit to Manouvre Drive, Single Hit to Pulse Laser Turrets #1 & #2
Black Swan – 11/20 Hull Damage, Armour 4, Single Hit to Pulse Laser Turret #1

 

[smiths121]

do not think using -6 on the crew radiation damage table is stretching too far.

Given the high cost - radiation shielding has got to have the -6 affect against meson guns. Otherwise there is no defense against the meson flicker (nasty weapon, goes against the crew and the computer not the ship) in the game.

I disagree, if you read the page I stated the reason Rad shielding doesn't help against meson is because it is in the armor. Meson weapons detonate inside the ship bypassing the armor. "Radiation Damage" does not = "Radiation Hit"
you only use radiation Damage with Barrages and Spinal Weapons.

Now it will absorb 1000 Rads of crew radiation, but it is not worth the cost.

On a side note there is a way to protect against meson and meson flicker weapons. per page 47 of HighGuard.

"Meson screens reduce radiation damage from meson guns and
meson flicker weapons. Radiation hits from these weapons
suffer a –DM equal to twice the active number of screens."

The first sentence is for Capital ships. The second is for all meson screens at all levels. so 2 screens active -4d6+skill lvl, and -4 DM on crew hit vs flicker weapons.

[/quote]

Meson screens good, apologies bit high tech for me so never had the opportunity to consider them/never considered them - you are of course right. It would be interesting to compare the cost of the 2 methods (I'll have a go after the tournament).

Part of the fun of a tournament is it drags up things like radiation shielding. I would say the triple particle beam turret was banned by its effect in tournament 1 as much as everything else.

 

[locarno24]

Turn 10

Manouvre Phase
Amythest
3 Thrust used to open range on Yamato, Maximum Speed

Yamato
Adrift

Black Swan
3 Thrust used to increase range from Yamato

Net change:
Amythest now Medium Range, 2 Thrust to Long Range
14 Thrust to bring Black Swan to Medium Range

Combat Phase

u]Amythest[/u]

Firing on Yamato

Very High Yield Particle Bay Mount
Range Medium (-1), Fire Control (+1), Gunner Skill (+2) : DM +2
Rolls 5,6: 13 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,1,1,4,4,6: 23 Damage
Armour 9+6 – 8 Damage, Two Single Hits
Location Roll – 2,6: Hull
-1 Hull.
Location Roll – 1,3: Manouvre Drive
-1 Hull.

Long Range Fusion Bay Mount
Range Short (-1), Fire Control (+1), Gunner Skill (+2) : DM+2
Rolls 3,6: 10 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 2,2,4,4,5: 17 Damage
Armour 9+6 – 2 Damage, Single Hit
Location Roll – 5,5: Manouvre Drive
-1 Hull.

Long Range Fusion Bay Mount
Range Medium (-1), Gunner Skill (+2) : DM+1
Rolls 4,4: 9 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 4,4,4,5,6: 23 Damage
Armour 9+6 – 8 Damage, Two Single Hits
Location Roll – 3,6: Turret (Railgun Barbette #5)
The Turret and all weapons in it are disabled



Yamato

Unable to fire due to sensor failure


Black Swan

Very High Yield Particle Bay Mount
Range Long (0), Fire Control (+1), Gunner Skill (+2) : DM+3
Rolls 3,4: 10 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,2,2,3,4,6: 22 Damage
Armour 9+6 – 7 Damage, Two Single Hits
Location Roll – 3,4: Armour
-1 Armour
Location Roll – 5,6: Sensors
Sensors Destroyed

Long Range Fusion Bay Mount
Range Long (0), Fire Control (+1), Gunner Skill (+2) : DM+3
Rolls 5,6: 13 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 2,3,4,4,6: 19 Damage
Armour 8+6 – 5 Damage, 2 Single Hits
Location Roll – 3,4: Armour
-1 Armour
Location Roll – 1,4: Fuel
-1 Hull

Long Range Fusion Bay Mount
Range Long (0), Gunner Skill (+2) : DM+2
Rolls 1,5: 8 (Hit)
Damage Roll – 1,1,2,4,5: 21 Damage
Armour 7+6 – No Damage


Ship Action Phase

Amythest

Repaired Power Plant

Yamato

Failed Mechanic Check to Repair Manouvre Drive

Black Swan

Failed Mechanic Check to Repair Pulse Laser Turret
Increased Initiative by 5


Status:
Yamato -20/26 Hull Damage, Armour 7, Triple Hit to Sensors, Triple Hit to Manouvre Drive, Triple Hit to Fuel, Single Hit to Railgun Barbettes #5 & #8
Amythest – 4/22 Structural Damage, Armour 5, Single Hit to Jump Drive, Triple Hit to Fuel Tank, Triple Hit to Sensors, Single Hit to Countermeasures, Single Hit to Manouvre Drive, Single Hit to Pulse Laser Turrets #1 & #2
Black Swan – 11/20 Hull Damage, Armour 4


****

The two Ma'Van sloops circled the disabled ship, hammering mercilessly at it.

“Captain? We're picking up a wide-band signal from the enemy Yamato-class. They inform us that they have lost fire control and are unable to restore manouvring power, and that their missile magazines are empty. They are requesting surrender under standard mercenary terms.”

****


[That was a shock turnaround... Of course the Yamato – unlike the Black Swans – lacks secondary sensors, which means that after a triple hit it is screwed. After a full turn of essentially sitting and taking a pounding, with another such turn in the works, and with Amythest now rapidly moving out of railgun range, I'm calling it there! So far, one-nil to the Ma'Van Royal Navy...]

Next up - Darling Belle vs the 252 Squadron

 

[dalamar981]

Combat Phase

u]Amythest[/u]

Firing on Yamato

Yamato Evading – 3,6:11 (Success)
Very High Yield Particle Bay Mount
Range Short (-1), Fire Control (+1), Gunner Skill (+2), Evading (-2) : DM +0
Rolls 2,4: 6 (Miss)

Ok, I think I have a stupid question about what happened in the quote above. When it says "Evading" do you mean "Dodging"?

The reason I ask is Dodge is a reaction using thrust while evade is automatic software that grants an automatic -1DM

Are any of the ships running Evade software or are they just using Full fire control?

I would think using Evade to give the attacker a -1DM on all attacks then dodge on specific attacks -2DM for a total of -3DM would be great.

This train of thought leads to another question. Evade says that it allows you to make a number of dodges = rating per round. Under reactions it says you are allowed to make dodges = the number of thrust saved for maneuvers. are these mutually exclusive or do you need both?

IE. I saved 4 thrust for maneuvers. enemy shoots 4 beam weapons. I am running Evade 2.

1) I get -1DM against all 4 + I can dodge only 2 because I'm limited by Evade.
or
2) I get -1DM against all 4 + I can dodge only 2 because I'm limited by Evade, and I burn 2 thrust.
or
3) I get -1DM against all 4 + I can dodge 4. 2 by Evade, and 2 by pilot. use 2 thrust.
or
4) I get -1DM against all 4 + I can dodge 4. 2 by Evade, and 2 by pilot. use 4 thrust.

in 1 or 2 is the computer rolling or is it the pilot?

sorry if I am all over the place One question and thought kept leading me to another as I was writing this.

 

[locarno24]

We've always played it that evade is an automatically successful (but less effective, being DM-1 rather than DM-2) dodge test.

 

[barnest2]

I say no mercy to the damn Pirates. Blow the too pieces from long range.

 

[dalamar981]

We've always played it that evade is an automatically successful (but less effective, being DM-1 rather than DM-2) dodge test.

But there is no dodge test involved in the -1DM from evade. That DM is completely separate form any dodge test. You get it for just running at least One level of Evade.

 

[smiths121]

We've always played it that evade is an automatically successful (but less effective, being DM-1 rather than DM-2) dodge test.

But there is no dodge test involved in the -1DM from evade. That DM is completely separate form any dodge test. You get it for just running at least One level of Evade.

My reading is it is -1, not as effective as a dodge by the pilot. The level of evade is the number of times the computer can do this - i.e. the number of hits the -1 can be applied to.

 

[dalamar981]

My reading is it is -1, not as effective as a dodge by the pilot. The level of evade is the number of times the computer can do this - i.e. the number of hits the -1 can be applied to.

OK I understand what you are saying. However I don't think you are reading that correctly.

"The computer reacts automatically to incoming fire, applying a negative
DM of –1. The ship can make a number of dodges each round equal to
the listed number."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this rule is written in 2 parts.

part 1.) "The computer reacts automatically to incoming fire, applying a negative DM of –1."

this is a complete rule and sentence. The period is a separation of thought in this regard. this sentence means that you get a -1 DM if you are running any level of evade, because the computer is constantly making adjustments to incoming fire.

Part 2.) "The ship can make a number of dodges each round equal to
the listed number."

This is the rule that lets you know that evade can let you use the Dodge rule in the space combat section of the book. This rule is like fire control in that it allows the computer to dodge if there is a lack of pilots available.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that my rules lawyering and Language arts analysis is over let me also throw in a few personal thoughts.

first the computer should never be worse that a human pilot in space combat for the purpose of dodging. the reason for this is that we are dealing with mostly invisible energies moving faster than we can perceive. Think of it this way, An enemy ship fires a slew of weapons at your ship. your sensors receive this data, crunch the trajectories, and output the data into a format the pilots can understand. The pilots then must interpret the data and react to it by imputing data into the flight system. (Dodge)

Even the best pilot can react only so fast. but in the example above. with evade running the computer gets to skip the step of outputting data for human consumption, and the sensor data is fed into the flight system so that the computer is taking corrective action before the human pilots even able to see what is happening.

Heck I think that you don't get enough from evade software as it is. At the very least I think you should get -2 DM at Level 3 at least. -1 DM per level might be over doing it.

From a rules point of view I think that without the static -1 DM there would be no reason to ever run this software instead of Fire Control. With the static -1 DM now i really need to think if I want to run level 5 Fire Control, or run level 3 Fire Control and level 1 Evade with a maxed computer at TL 12.

Thanks for listening.

 

[apoc527]

Actually, I agree with you except for one thing. In the case of lasers, there is no indication you've been shot at until you get hit. For p-beams and other energy weapons, there will be VERY little difference between detection and being hit (depending on range). For missiles, obviously you'd know. So, why does this matter? Because dodging is a matter not of REaction, but affirmative jinking and juking. A computer might be more predictable in its dodging patterns than a highly skilled pilot.

That's all I have to add...

 

[Galadrion]

Hey, Locarno24, are you okay man? Been a while since the last round, and I'm kinda getting a bit itchy to see some more action around here. First matchup was pretty engaging, after all.

 

[locarno24]

Yeah... apologies. Real life has been intruding a bit. I have a few things still to sort before I'm likely to get evenings to myself again...

 

[Galadrion]

Hey, no problem. I was just starting to wonder if maybe life had done something serious, rather than just interfere. Good to know otherwise, and I'll be waiting (impatiently, but then that's normal for me) to see what develops. Good job on the first round.