Big list of changes in the Second Edition

thulsa said:
Still wish you had done some consolidation. While Climb and Swim are essential skills that should be left alone, I don't see any reason why Listen and Spot (and possibly Search) couldn't be rolled into a "Perception" skill, while Hide and Move Silently could become "Stealth". Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble could become "Acrobatics".

Why not Listen and Spot? Because I wanted to preserve a game where the rules meaningfully distinguished between a 'keen-eared' and 'eagle-eyed' hero or race.

The purpose would be to simplify running the game. I'm never really sure whether the players should roll Move Silently or Hide (or both?) when sneaking up to some unsuspecting guard -- so why not just make a Stealth vs Perception opposed check?

I'd go for whichever one is more likely to fail - if you've got Move Silently +10 but Hide +5, then go with Spot vs Hide.
 
thulsa said:
Mongoose Gar said:
I got my author's copy of 2nd ed, so I can finally compare my word documents with the finished product. Here's the start of the list of changes that I made that show up in the book - other changes may have been made after I handed it in, so I might miss some of those...

By the way, I assume it's okay that I add your list of changes to my existing list?

Of course. Someone's going to write these up anyway - I'm just saving them the time :).
 
TEMPTRESS CHANGES
* Rumours as a class skill
* Secret Art: At third level, the temptress picks a Secret Art. She can take Sneak Attack (+1d6 sneak attack), Sorcery (one sorcery style), 2+Wis mod base PP) or Politics (can take Ally, Entertainer, Improved Standing, Refuge, Smear Others or Secrets from the Noble class)
* At 7th level, she gets +1d6 Sneak Attack, or an Advanced Spell and the ability to get Power Points from sex, or another Political ability.
* At 11th level, another die of Sneak Attack/Advanced spell/Political ability. If she's on the Political Secret Art path, she also gets Above Suspicion.
* At 17th level, another 1d6 Sneak Attack/Advanced spell and +2 BPP/political ability.
 
Mongoose Gar said:
Why not Listen and Spot? Because I wanted to preserve a game where the rules meaningfully distinguished between a 'keen-eared' and 'eagle-eyed' hero or race.

I see your point, but I don't think the difference is important enough to justify two different skills. There are no Smell, Taste and Touch skills.

Mongoose Gar said:
I'd go for whichever one is more likely to fail - if you've got Move Silently +10 but Hide +5, then go with Spot vs Hide.

But then you have to check/ask every time during play. Rolling it into one skill reduces that extra work before play even begins.

- thulsa
 
Thanks for those lists Gareth, that's great!

I was also hoping for consolidation of skills, but I'm OK with doing it "the good old way". I guess keeping the skills intact also makes the new rules more compatible with published stuff.
BTW, I really like what you did with Knowledge (local) and Knowledge (rumours)! :D

Mongoose Gar said:
TEMPTRESS:
* has stolen my copy of Hyboria's Fallen, so I can't compare the old and new classes.
Who stole your book?! A temptress?! :lol:
 
I've updated the list again, with Gareth's additions:

http://hyboria.xoth.net/rules/changes_in_conan_second_edition.htm

- thulsa
 
First off, thanks for the low down, Gar.

Second, I'm glad to see that INIT, Def Blast and some other bits were cleared up (I dislike skill consolidation, frankly, so good call there), but there wer two questions i was hoping were clarified with this edition, and since I don't have a copy yet, can you (or anyone else) tell me the 2ed result to"

1) Sneak attacks could be accomplished if an opponent was denied "either Dodge Defense or Parry Defense" (quote from AE). Now, I interpreted that as when any target was denied one or the other or both. The general interpretation was when a target was denied only both Dodge or Parry, but the "or" kept me convinced that being denied just one of the two was enough to warrant Sneak Attacks to be allowed. It's a crucial interpretation, though, and I wonder if 2ed cleard up the grammar (for me anyway).

2) What's the interaction now between Opportunistic Sacrifice and Def Blast?
 
Sutek said:
1) Sneak attacks could be accomplished if an opponent was denied "either Dodge Defense or Parry Defense" (quote from AE). Now, I interpreted that as when any target was denied one or the other or both. The general interpretation was when a target was denied only both Dodge or Parry, but the "or" kept me convinced that being denied just one of the two was enough to warrant Sneak Attacks to be allowed. It's a crucial interpretation, though, and I wonder if 2ed cleard up the grammar (for me anyway).
As far as I can see, the wording is exactly the same as it used to be. We've argued about this before so I won't get into that discussion again, but for me the rules have always been perfectly clear on this.

2) What's the interaction now between Opportunistic Sacrifice and Def Blast?
There is a new line that reads: "You cannot use Opportunistic Sacrifice after slaying a foe with a Defensive Blast". Nice and easy. :D
 
Azgulor said:
For point-buy stat generation, what was the amount of points suggested?
28 points for standard buy, 32 points for heroic.

Scores above 14 cost 2 points per step, all the way up to 18 (IIRC, in regular D&D point-buy, scores 17 and 18 cost 3 points per step, right?).
 
Sutek said:
1) Sneak attacks could be accomplished if an opponent was denied "either Dodge Defense or Parry Defense" (quote from AE). Now, I interpreted that as when any target was denied one or the other or both. The general interpretation was when a target was denied only both Dodge or Parry, but the "or" kept me convinced that being denied just one of the two was enough to warrant Sneak Attacks to be allowed. It's a crucial interpretation, though, and I wonder if 2ed cleard up the grammar (for me anyway).

That's not an entirely correct representation of the issue. As with Trodax, we already had a debate on this, so I won't get into that again, but I will clarify the issue in case it does get addressed here, so that it is properly addressed.

The text of Sneak Attack (per p. 270 of the pocket edition) says "A sneak attack can only be made against a character who is unable to use Dodge Defense or Parry Defense to defend himself, or who is being flanked." Further, it says "If a character is able to defend himself with either Dodge Defense or Parry Defense (such as a character with the Reflexive Parry feat who is attacked when flat-footed) then he is not susceptible to a sneak attack, unless the sneak attack is of a kind that the chosen defense cannot help against. For example, a flat-footed character with Reflexive Parry could still be sneak attacked by a character using a ranged weapon, because ranged attacks cannot be parried." (Underlining added by me.)

Now that the exact text is available, the issue can be presented. As I understand it (but it has been a while), Sutek read the text to mean that if either of the defenses are not available (an exclusive "or" for the first underlining), then the target could be sneak attacked, i.e., if someone has a bow 30' from the target, then they could do sneak attack damage to the target because the target only has Dodge Defense available, and cannot use Parry Defense - regardless whether the target was surprised, flat-footed, etc., i.e., just simply standing there aware of the attack.

Basically the remainder of us understood the text to mean that if neither (an inclusive "or" for the first underlining) defense were available against the attack, then sneak attack could occur. I.e., if a target isn't flat-footed, or if is flat-footed but has Uncanny Dodge, Dodge is available to a target being attacked by a bow and therefore does not take sneak attack damage from the bow attack.

Further, Sutek appears to miss other significant matters, including (1) that a character declares whether he is dodging or parrying against each opponent, so against a ranged opponent, the target would select dodging which the character can use against ranged opponents, and (2) that under his interpretation, a character could never use Reflexive Parry when flat-footed to avoid sneak attack damage, because the character could not use Dodge Defense (since he could only parry, and Sutek thinks that if one type of defense is unavailable, the target can be dealt sneak attack damage regardless that another defense is available).
 
Trodax said:
Azgulor said:
For point-buy stat generation, what was the amount of points suggested?
28 points for standard buy, 32 points for heroic.

Scores above 14 cost 2 points per step, all the way up to 18 (IIRC, in regular D&D point-buy, scores 17 and 18 cost 3 points per step, right?).

Nah, more complex in DnD, see:
http://home.san.rr.com/thegraggs/dnd/Misc/pbcalc.htm

Interesting to have added it - I used heroic point-buy previously in Conan, but as follows: base 8 in each stat, plus 33 points to divide as desired, added straight up (i.e., no increasing stages like DnD or this). 33 was used because it was the average of the rolls for heroic Conan stats, which were base 8, plus 1d10. If this heroic rolling method is still included but those are the point-buys given, then it's better to roll the dice (even if everything was 14/under and 1-for-1, it's still less than the average dice roll - though no risk obviously), especially if you are going to buy a couple of stats beyond 14.
 
Just want to add my thanks to Mongoose Gar for the official list o' changes. It will all make more sense once my book arrives. Someday soon I'm told. :x
 
Trodax said:
Sutek said:
1) Sneak attacks could be accomplished if an opponent was denied "either Dodge Defense or Parry Defense" (quote from AE). Now, I interpreted that as when any target was denied one or the other or both. The general interpretation was when a target was denied only both Dodge or Parry, but the "or" kept me convinced that being denied just one of the two was enough to warrant Sneak Attacks to be allowed. It's a crucial interpretation, though, and I wonder if 2ed cleard up the grammar (for me anyway).
As far as I can see, the wording is exactly the same as it used to be. We've argued about this before so I won't get into that discussion again, but for me the rules have always been perfectly clear on this.

2) What's the interaction now between Opportunistic Sacrifice and Def Blast?
There is a new line that reads: "You cannot use Opportunistic Sacrifice after slaying a foe with a Defensive Blast". Nice and easy. :D

Thanks, Trodax. Slaughterj seems to be under the impression that I asked him the question. Oh well, it gave him an opportunity to be snide and point out what he percieves as flaws in others.
:roll:

(Seriously, sj, let this be a group forum with answers posed to Mongoose. You wanna get personal, PM me. :wink: )
 
Sutek said:
Trodax said:
Sutek said:
1) Sneak attacks could be accomplished if an opponent was denied "either Dodge Defense or Parry Defense" (quote from AE). Now, I interpreted that as when any target was denied one or the other or both. The general interpretation was when a target was denied only both Dodge or Parry, but the "or" kept me convinced that being denied just one of the two was enough to warrant Sneak Attacks to be allowed. It's a crucial interpretation, though, and I wonder if 2ed cleard up the grammar (for me anyway).
As far as I can see, the wording is exactly the same as it used to be. We've argued about this before so I won't get into that discussion again, but for me the rules have always been perfectly clear on this.

2) What's the interaction now between Opportunistic Sacrifice and Def Blast?
There is a new line that reads: "You cannot use Opportunistic Sacrifice after slaying a foe with a Defensive Blast". Nice and easy. :D

Thanks, Trodax. Slaughterj seems to be under the impression that I asked him the question. Oh well, it gave him an opportunity to be snide and point out what he percieves as flaws in others.
:roll:

(Seriously, sj, let this be a group forum with answers posed to Mongoose. You wanna get personal, PM me. :wink: )

I am not getting personal, just providing a more complete explanation, just as I said. If you want to read much more into it than that, it is certainly your perogative, but there's no need to complain about it as well. Certainly you want an accurate answer to the issue, rather than one which might be flawed because of an incomplete portrayal of the issue, right? :roll:
 
Here are a couple more small changes that I've discovered during my reading of the book, and that I didn't see on Gareth's lists:

* Uncanny Dodge now lets you use your Dodge defense when caught flat-footed, not "Dodge or Parry" as it used to be. Makes sense to me, given the name of the ability. :)

* The maximum rank you can have in a cross-class skill is now level+3, same as for class skills. I like this as well.
 
Trodax said:
* The maximum rank you can have in a cross-class skill is now level+3, same as for class skills. I like this as well.
This makes sense with the emphasis on multi-classing. It got a bit confusing at times.

I've also just noticed that they have simplified the Barbarian's Greater Crimson Mist ability. The bonuses from 11th level are now +6 Str, +6 Con and +3 Will saves.

Will there be a 2nd ed pocket edition?
I have very large pockets...

Ralph
 
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