Beyond the Abyss - Groups and Fleet listings

[CZuschlag]

I know -- but the problem is that so many ships have only 1 troop (and some Pak'ma'ra have zero!) that this is a far-too-cheezy kill. I want A Call to Arms, not A Call to Marines.

 

[Davesaint]

With the new critical chart in 2nd edition, ships like the Ikorta, which has precise weapons and lots of troops, are going to be brutally effective in eliminating a lot of big warships. Especially since ships don't need to be speed 0 in second edition in order to be boarded. They only need to fit the following: Either be speed 0, Running Adrift, or have moved less than 1/2 their movement.

Adrift is quite difficult to achieve (more so than speed 0 in 1e). Speed 0 is only really possible on speed 4 ships (of which there are about 2). Of course crippled ships are now fair game. If you do All Stop! while there is an Ikorta, T'loth or Secondus around, you are asking for trouble.

Just another question relating to 2nd Ed. If the target ship takes a Troops Critical in which you have your own troops on, Do your troops die too?

Dave

No.

Why not? I mean, why wouldn't the explosions and fires effect the enemy Troops as well? Do they have some super-duper extra hardended enviorment suit or something? Frankly there should be some penalty for firing on a ship you have boarded. Some risk. Otherwise the game becomes Babylon 5 A Call for Marines. The Pak'ma'ra don't get a Troop on their ships until RAID level. The get ony ONE troop on their WAR level Hull. Criticals are easy to come by in both editions. In 2nd Ed there are 3 criticals that make you suceptable to boarding. 1-6, 2-6, 3-6. There are 2 criticals that have you lose troops - 5-5, 5-6. There are 4 criticals that take away Special Actions. With the amount of precise weapons in the game its really easy to board.

The following races have precise weapons in 2nd Ed:

EA, Minbari, Narn, Centauri, Brakiri, Vree, Abbai, ISA, Vorlons, Shadows, Drakh. I might be missing one or 2, but that's just off the top of my head. With that much precise running around, do we really want to make boarding easier?


Dave

 

[katadder]

i would say that any crits that effect troops would effect troops rampaging round the ship. after all they are the only troops on board now.

as for not capturing a ship if you kill all the crew with shooting, wanna tell me why not? if theres no crew and you have troops on board you can capture the ship. hell if theres no crew but the ship is intact you can launch a boarding action to capture the ship.
as long as you have troops on board at the end of the game and there is no crew you have captured the ship no matter how the crew is removed.

 

[Greg Smith]

i would say that any crits that effect troops would effect troops rampaging round the ship. after all they are the only troops on board now.

Except the rules say: "If you have Troops on board an enemy ship, they will not suffer casualties if the enemy is reduced to Skeleton Crew or from
critical hits applied to the ship."

 

[Burger]

Because your troops somehow know which sections of the ship are going to get shot at/depressurized/on fire, and can get out of the way in time?

 

[Greg Smith]

Frankly there should be some penalty for firing on a ship you have boarded.

Generally it is crippled ships that are easy meat for boarding. Continued fire is likely to destroy a crippled ship, thus making the boarding action pointless.

In 2nd Ed there are 3 criticals that make you suceptable to boarding. 1-6, 2-6, 3-6.

2-6 is the same crit as 1-6. How does 3-6 make you susceptible to boarding?

There are 2 criticals that have you lose troops - 5-5, 5-6. There are 4 criticals that take away Special Actions. With the amount of precise weapons in the game its really easy to board.

Loss of special actions doesn't make it easier to board.

The following races have precise weapons in 2nd Ed:

EA, Minbari, Narn, Centauri, Brakiri, Vree, Abbai, ISA, Vorlons, Shadows, Drakh. I might be missing one or 2, but that's just off the top of my head. With that much precise running around, do we really want to make boarding easier?

The only race that has Precise that didn't have it before is the Centauri. Now there are less criticals that make a ship susceptible to boarding.

Is boarding easier - yes. But is was very difficult to achieve in 1e. Is it a game breaker? no - I've seen it happen succesfully once in all the playtest games I did. In my opinion it adds a tactical option to the game.

 

[Davesaint]

Frankly there should be some penalty for firing on a ship you have boarded.

Generally it is crippled ships that are easy meat for boarding. Continued fire is likely to destroy a crippled ship, thus making the boarding action pointless.

In 2nd Ed there are 3 criticals that make you suceptable to boarding. 1-6, 2-6, 3-6.

2-6 is the same crit as 1-6. How does 3-6 make you susceptible to boarding?

There are 2 criticals that have you lose troops - 5-5, 5-6. There are 4 criticals that take away Special Actions. With the amount of precise weapons in the game its really easy to board.

Loss of special actions doesn't make it easier to board.

The following races have precise weapons in 2nd Ed:

EA, Minbari, Narn, Centauri, Brakiri, Vree, Abbai, ISA, Vorlons, Shadows, Drakh. I might be missing one or 2, but that's just off the top of my head. With that much precise running around, do we really want to make boarding easier?

The only race that has Precise that didn't have it before is the Centauri. Now there are less criticals that make a ship susceptible to boarding.

Is boarding easier - yes. But is was very difficult to achieve in 1e. Is it a game breaker? no - I've seen it happen succesfully once in all the playtest games I did. In my opinion it adds a tactical option to the game.

You are correct the 3-6 critical is a No SA crit now.

However the 1/5 crit on a ship that moves less than speed 8 would technically limit you to moving less than 1/2 your speed.

Why the no special action crit effects boarding: You cant use the all stop SA in order to counter board.

Boarding in 1st Ed wasn't hard, it was just that ships tended to blow up a little more often

The Centauri exchanged their DD beams for Precise beams. This is a HUGE deal. The abbai did not lose any dice on their beams, even though the got essentially the SAP property for free with the new beam rules.

If you look at the Cannon of the show, the only time you ever see anything boarded, is B5 Station. You never saw boarding actions between ships.

RE: Troop loss to fire - There is no way that troops defending the ship against boarding actions and the troops that are attacking the ship during boarding actions would not be in the same place. I can't believe that there would be such precision in these weapons systems that they can differentiate friend from foe in a small cargo bay or a 4 foot wide corridor of a ship, especially since the person firing this weapon on the ship cant see through the hull of the enemy target to see where his buddies are! These weapons aren't laser scalpels.

CZuschalg - can you quote the rule regarding the VP point difference due to crewing out by fire vs. boarding?


Thanks,


Dave

 

[katadder]

perhaps boarders are in vac suited armour as they breaching. most troops sitting on board dont sit around in that.
abbai lost other stuff and they were never long ranged anyway.
centauri gained precise, but single damage beams, same as abbai and generally shorter range.

 

[Burger]

Troops in vac suits would be at quite a disadvantage when fighting! Especially considering the bulkiness of vac suits in the series ("The One" vac suit in Babylon Squared was the same one from 2001).

 

[CZuschlag]

SFoS, Page 21, Column 2, Paragraph 2:

"If the Crew of the ship are completely wiped out by the Troops on board, the ship is consider to be captured." (Emphasis is the poster's).

Note clearly that it is not considered captured if the Crew is wiped out while there are enemy troops on board.

If I really wanted to be a stickler, I could interpret the "completely" to mean the same as "entirely", making true capture almost an impossibility, but I find this interpretation unlikely.

Rule text in the preview of 2E has identical text.

 

[katadder]

from 2e rules:

When a ship’s Crew score is reduced to 0, it is considered to be Running Adrift. For the rest of the game, the ship is moved
at half its current speed in a straight line in the End Phase, until it moves off the table. The number of Troops on the ship
will also be reduced to 0. A ship reduced to 0 Crew will take no further active part in the game, will count as destroyed for
victory purposes, but may still be boarded (see page 42).

now what would be the point in boarding if you cannot get the VPs for a capture? if you board a ship with no crew you capture it, as theres no one to stop you capturing it.

 

[Burger]

By the letter of the rules...

If you board a ship and the troops kill off the crew, then you get double VPs.
If you shoot the ship and kill the crew and then board it, you get double VPs.
If you board the ship, then shoot at the ship and kill the last crew member, you don't get double VPs... unless you board it again with more troops?

 

[CZuschlag]

Common sense, and rules, do not necessarily make any sense at all.

See the ruling that, if a boarder is the only one with troops on board, those troops are impervious to criticals, whereas the original troops are not.

w.z.B.w.

Burger -- Katadder (rightly) shows that you can board it. It just won't do you any good. Note that it is explicitly considered Destroyed and has no mechanism by which it can be changed to captured (as the troops cannot wipe out what is already gone!).

 

[katadder]

doesnt say the situation cannot be changed, after all you can still board it. now in common sense if theres enemy troops ona ship with no crew then the ship is captured.

 

[Burger]

But we don't play by common sense, we play by rules. Common sense says it isn't a special action for a ship to not move in a turn, but rules say it is.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

This text...

When a ship’s Crew score is reduced to 0, it is considered to be Running Adrift. For the rest of the game, the ship is moved
at half its current speed in a straight line in the End Phase, until it moves off the table. The number of Troops on the ship
will also be reduced to 0. A ship reduced to 0 Crew will take no further active part in the game, will count as destroyed for
victory purposes, but may still be boarded (see page 42).

...seems to indicate that if you board a ship and your troops kill off all the troops and crew on board, all your troops then automatically die and the ship runs adrift for the rest of the game...

 

[CZuschlag]

Common sense would also suggest that 1 troop, which is small percentage of a ship's complement (given when you lose it due to crew damage, only at Skeleton Crew), would not be capable of wiping out, on average 16 crew each, given that the ship's crew would have full military training in the first place, and that there wouldn't be internal automated personnel defense systems all over a ship of war that could be boarded. Yet, nevertheless, we have the ridiculously powerful troop damage table.

Appealing to Common Sense in wargaming is usually a losing cause.

 

[Burger]

LOL... you're right LDD! The troops kill off the last crew member then place both PPG barrels in their own mouth!

internal automated personnel defense systems all over a ship of war

What, you mean, like... a door?

 

[katadder]

Common sense would also suggest that 1 troop, which is small percentage of a ship's complement (given when you lose it due to crew damage, only at Skeleton Crew), would not be capable of wiping out, on average 16 crew each, given that the ship's crew would have full military training in the first place, and that there wouldn't be internal automated personnel defense systems all over a ship of war that could be boarded. Yet, nevertheless, we have the ridiculously powerful troop damage table.

Appealing to Common Sense in wargaming is usually a losing cause.

1 troop is most likely 100 or more armed troops in body armour that are not trying to run a ship.
now the crew might overpower them but side arms versus rifles and body armour of trained marines isnt going to work. and you would lose the ships capabilities for a few turns whilst everyone abandoned posst to hunt down the intruders.
if you put a 100 RMC onto an enemy ship I am sure they could take it. alot of duty personel dont even carry weapons (see the B5 C&C staff) after all thats what they have their own troops/security forces for.

as for internal automated defense systems, lose 1d6 crew per turn down to random errands boys being shot going for the tea or whatever.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Common sense would also suggest that 1 troop, which is small percentage of a ship's complement (given when you lose it due to crew damage, only at Skeleton Crew), would not be capable of wiping out, on average 16 crew each, given that the ship's crew would have full military training in the first place, and that there wouldn't be internal automated personnel defense systems all over a ship of war that could be boarded. Yet, nevertheless, we have the ridiculously powerful troop damage table.

Appealing to Common Sense in wargaming is usually a losing cause.

I don't recall any mention in the series of automated internal defences. There certainly weren't any on Babylon 5 - the security force had to fight the EarthForce Marines man-to-man in Severed Dreams. We also don't see EarthForce crewmen walking around armed in any shots of the inside of ships or stations. So, armed marines boarding a ship would be able to effectively massacre a ship's crew - barring accidents and the sort of weird stuff that can happen in a war - after the defending marines were defeated.

I still say there should be a mechanic for crews surrendering when all the friendly troops are dead rather than being killed to a man. Even the most savage races in B5 would hesitate to unleash that kind of slaughter without need...