Beyond the 20th level
- Thread starter The King
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VincentDarlage
Mongoose
My answer isn't on the poll. My players tend to retire their characters before 20th level, but keep them around for the occasional stunt while they move on to lower level characters.
rabindranath72
Mongoose
IMO high, D&D-like levels do not fit the genre. Even Conan at 20th level is a stretch IMO.
Cheers,
Antonio
Cheers,
Antonio
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
Did you never play RPGs as a player rather than a GM? Aren't you interested to discover the life of adventurers?VincentDarlage said:
In fact we played like you when we used to play AD&D; because of the discrepancies in levels and the occasional death of PCs, each player used to introduce a new character when his first one reached level 5-7 and it wasn't uncommon than each of us played with 2 PCs.
David St-Michel
Mongoose
I answered no.
In one sense, it coudn't be considered "canon" to have level 21+ characters. And to imagine a character that will grow to eventuall oust Conan in sheer power... That's a bit of a stretch.
And personally, I don't check levels and power all that much in my characters. My players and I have played for around four months now, more or less twice per month. They've just upgraded to level 3.
But that's really a small detail in the game. The real kick has been to see the character develop and grow togehter into a tight, family-like unit. THAT is the real fun I have in RPG, and I'm blessed to have players who feel exactly alike. Two of my three players are artists and doodle up portraits for the characters and NPC that travel with them. That, for me, is way cooler then to have a character become lvl 34.
And Conan actually caught Atali, after having cleaved her two ice-brothers. And from what I can gather, Conan wasn't -that- powerful when he put his dirty paws on her in "The Frost Giant's daughter".
But I've kind of gotten off-track here, haven't I...
No, I don't think that Conan characters should be able to get past level 20.
Thank you!
P.S.: If my PCs can keep their characters from level 1 to 20, I will GLADLY get them in enough trouble to keep them occupied, regardless of their power.
In one sense, it coudn't be considered "canon" to have level 21+ characters. And to imagine a character that will grow to eventuall oust Conan in sheer power... That's a bit of a stretch.
And personally, I don't check levels and power all that much in my characters. My players and I have played for around four months now, more or less twice per month. They've just upgraded to level 3.
But that's really a small detail in the game. The real kick has been to see the character develop and grow togehter into a tight, family-like unit. THAT is the real fun I have in RPG, and I'm blessed to have players who feel exactly alike. Two of my three players are artists and doodle up portraits for the characters and NPC that travel with them. That, for me, is way cooler then to have a character become lvl 34.
And Conan actually caught Atali, after having cleaved her two ice-brothers. And from what I can gather, Conan wasn't -that- powerful when he put his dirty paws on her in "The Frost Giant's daughter".
But I've kind of gotten off-track here, haven't I...
No, I don't think that Conan characters should be able to get past level 20.
Thank you!
P.S.: If my PCs can keep their characters from level 1 to 20, I will GLADLY get them in enough trouble to keep them occupied, regardless of their power.
I started in old DnD, that didnt really have a level limit, or all that many other rules either. I guess it set the base for me, as i have nevr been that happy with any system that limited you to just 20 levels.
But I dont really like the epic level thing either. the difference in power from 22-23 level should be the same as from 12-12 level.
But thats just me and a few other old fogeys I still talk to.
owen
But I dont really like the epic level thing either. the difference in power from 22-23 level should be the same as from 12-12 level.
But thats just me and a few other old fogeys I still talk to.
owen
Supplement Four
Mongoose
Yeah, one of the things I feel the d20 Conan game did right was cap out the level system instead of keeping it open ended.
I love this.
Level, really then, is a measure of an avatar's combined skill and experience in a certain type of work. Level 1 is a complete novice. Level 20 is a total master.
I picture most to lie somewhere on the bell curve.
In standard D&D, level is nothing but an arbitrary game statistic. Guards in a 1-4 level dungeon may be level 1 guards, with the sargent at Lvl 4 or 5.
Then, you play a level 8-10 adventure, and the guards are scaled: the same type of guards as in the lower level adventure are Lvl 8, and the sargent is Lvl 10 or 11.
Not so in Conan. Because of the level cap, you've got one scale to apply to all. I like that a 14 year old, just now picking up a sword and learning to fight is a 1st Lvl Soldier, but so is the 45 year old barkeep who's only broken up some bar fights in his life.
The guards in towns are typically the same Lvl everywhere, no matter what the PCs are Lvled at. The Sargents are the same, too.
Plus, the Conan experience system gives the GM supreme power to keep his game balanced, given this Lvl structure in the game.
This is all a very long winded way of saying that, yeah, I agree that Lvl 20 should be very rare (3 standard deviations), and I'm not too sure I'd be that interested in any material discussing that level.
OTOH, though...
This is a heroic fantasy game, and I can think of a situation or two where Lvl 20 epic questing might be a very, very interesting story to tell.
I'd say... It depends on the quality of the material. Some superbly written, excellent Conan game material might get me interested in an extremely high level game. But, if we're talking about the same-o, same-o, then, no, I'll prolly pass.
I love this.
Level, really then, is a measure of an avatar's combined skill and experience in a certain type of work. Level 1 is a complete novice. Level 20 is a total master.
I picture most to lie somewhere on the bell curve.
In standard D&D, level is nothing but an arbitrary game statistic. Guards in a 1-4 level dungeon may be level 1 guards, with the sargent at Lvl 4 or 5.
Then, you play a level 8-10 adventure, and the guards are scaled: the same type of guards as in the lower level adventure are Lvl 8, and the sargent is Lvl 10 or 11.
Not so in Conan. Because of the level cap, you've got one scale to apply to all. I like that a 14 year old, just now picking up a sword and learning to fight is a 1st Lvl Soldier, but so is the 45 year old barkeep who's only broken up some bar fights in his life.
The guards in towns are typically the same Lvl everywhere, no matter what the PCs are Lvled at. The Sargents are the same, too.
Plus, the Conan experience system gives the GM supreme power to keep his game balanced, given this Lvl structure in the game.
This is all a very long winded way of saying that, yeah, I agree that Lvl 20 should be very rare (3 standard deviations), and I'm not too sure I'd be that interested in any material discussing that level.
OTOH, though...
This is a heroic fantasy game, and I can think of a situation or two where Lvl 20 epic questing might be a very, very interesting story to tell.
I'd say... It depends on the quality of the material. Some superbly written, excellent Conan game material might get me interested in an extremely high level game. But, if we're talking about the same-o, same-o, then, no, I'll prolly pass.
I have a hard time seeing people play to where they'd be concerned with the possibility. Even if you got to 20th level (we are theoretically trying), I fail to see what value there would be in going further or how more mechanics would make it more interesting if you did.
20 is a round number, but the cap could have been 15 for all the difference it likely would have made. As has been brought up elsewhere, Conan doesn't scale like D&D. Offense outstrips defense, for one thing. Then, there aren't much in the way of novel abilities for most classes. Get better at fighting, get more spells - it's not really different than playing at lower levels. Can do some convoluted feat combos, get some of the flashier spells, and do more with prestige classes. If I could go past 20th level, I'd consider picking up some beastmaster levels, a tempter level, warlord levels, or whatnot, but to what end? Better to just start over and work on those things with someone new.
We are close to averaging 15th level with our mains. We have considered rebooting numerous times. While there are mechanical things for my character left to do (for humor value), there's not anything more thematically that needs to happen with him.
At our level, challenges are typically of the flip-a-coin of saving throws sort. Make it, and move on. Fail it, and suffer some crippling (if normally temporary) consequence. How long is that viable?
It might be different if the number of characters decreased or if they split up to where they'd take on similar challenges as larger parties of lower level characters and where each character could better further his own goals. Then, you could spend more time developing the awesomeness, or at least uniqueness, of a particular character. But, really, we are the same party as we were at 1st level in terms of play style, with enough experiences/experience to define the characters. Just getting more badass is better done on a computer. Our characters could develop more as characters in theory, but they don't need to and aren't likely to.[/u]
20 is a round number, but the cap could have been 15 for all the difference it likely would have made. As has been brought up elsewhere, Conan doesn't scale like D&D. Offense outstrips defense, for one thing. Then, there aren't much in the way of novel abilities for most classes. Get better at fighting, get more spells - it's not really different than playing at lower levels. Can do some convoluted feat combos, get some of the flashier spells, and do more with prestige classes. If I could go past 20th level, I'd consider picking up some beastmaster levels, a tempter level, warlord levels, or whatnot, but to what end? Better to just start over and work on those things with someone new.
We are close to averaging 15th level with our mains. We have considered rebooting numerous times. While there are mechanical things for my character left to do (for humor value), there's not anything more thematically that needs to happen with him.
At our level, challenges are typically of the flip-a-coin of saving throws sort. Make it, and move on. Fail it, and suffer some crippling (if normally temporary) consequence. How long is that viable?
It might be different if the number of characters decreased or if they split up to where they'd take on similar challenges as larger parties of lower level characters and where each character could better further his own goals. Then, you could spend more time developing the awesomeness, or at least uniqueness, of a particular character. But, really, we are the same party as we were at 1st level in terms of play style, with enough experiences/experience to define the characters. Just getting more badass is better done on a computer. Our characters could develop more as characters in theory, but they don't need to and aren't likely to.[/u]
Twin Agate Dragons
Mongoose
I'd love to see an epic supplement. The current ogl epic rules stink major.
Tend to agree with Supplement Four and David St-Michel - the Conan environment is not open-ended and it is incredibly gritty. Simple bar-keeps should, indeed, be level 1's. And that's part of the delight of character improvement and development in Conan: there is much more of a real sense of achievement and delight in the players as they improve and see themselves as much more than the run-of-the-mill people around them. One of the joys is higher-level PCs looking for reasons or rewards to pick up levels in noble so they can settle down somewhere and begin ruling a minor fief... just like Conan. 
The emergence of 4e was accompanied by a designer's acknowledgement of the "sweet spot" in D&D from levels 7-15. Whilst the Conan d20 is the best of d20's I've seen*, it's still saddled with with this baggage.
However, when reasons are extrapolated downwards in the Conan world, the 'cap' also gives a really good reason as to why the more powerful creatures and sorcerers are so powerful and powerful opponents so rare.
---------------------
* And I have a suspicion it might have influenced 4e, but that's another story!**
**No, I'm not knocking 4e - I really enjoy that, too.
The emergence of 4e was accompanied by a designer's acknowledgement of the "sweet spot" in D&D from levels 7-15. Whilst the Conan d20 is the best of d20's I've seen*, it's still saddled with with this baggage.
However, when reasons are extrapolated downwards in the Conan world, the 'cap' also gives a really good reason as to why the more powerful creatures and sorcerers are so powerful and powerful opponents so rare.
---------------------
* And I have a suspicion it might have influenced 4e, but that's another story!**
**No, I'm not knocking 4e - I really enjoy that, too.
Dark Mistress
Mongoose
I voted no because I don't think it fits the Conan feel. Epic levels are fine in some gumes and some settings. I just don't personally think they fit Conan.
Der Rote Baron
Mongoose
No need for "Super-Conan". My campaign is now featuring pcs that have fought their way up to around 10th level and since I am pretty darn badass gm (at least the baddest in my group) I can still challenge them with npcs of much lower level (a bunch of 6 level guards gives them a run for their money).
I think I could do likewise at level 20. But were is the point?
We played D&D with characters levels 16-20, and they only thing that changed were the hps of the monsters and the amount of damage delivered and taken.
I think D20 plays best between levels 6-8. No need for "Epic Rule" in this corner.
I think I could do likewise at level 20. But were is the point?
We played D&D with characters levels 16-20, and they only thing that changed were the hps of the monsters and the amount of damage delivered and taken.
I think D20 plays best between levels 6-8. No need for "Epic Rule" in this corner.
Not sure about the "show Ymir who is the real master by nailing his daughter" comment King. Kinda weird.
I don't have the time to play enough to get the PC's to level 21 or higher. I do like the idea of attacking Aquilonia/Turan or any country on an epic battlefront - and I imagine having to be close to level 20 or higher to be in that position. Looking forward to Empires.
I don't have the time to play enough to get the PC's to level 21 or higher. I do like the idea of attacking Aquilonia/Turan or any country on an epic battlefront - and I imagine having to be close to level 20 or higher to be in that position. Looking forward to Empires.
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