Are rift stations able to exist?

[phavoc]

While answering another question I was looking at Traveller map and the Islands cluster. Riftspan station (Limon, 2528) is J-4 away from Imperial space and the closest islands cluster system. That means a J-4 ship would expend 40% of its mass getting there, and 40% getting back. Now, you can make some minor changes to that (drop tanks, using the decreased fuel advantage), but the amount of usable fuel a ship could bring to the station is startingly small.

So unless a state entity was willing to expend vast sums to have a virtual train of tankers dropping of tiny amounts of fuel, rift stations without a localized source of fuel seem unlikely to exist - or at least would be vastly limited in the number and amount of ships that could reasonably pass through it.

Thoughts?

 

[Geir]

Ramscoops, rogue comets nearby, a rogue gas giant - that last one is especially good, since it avoids the whole 1000D controversy. If you have a whole cubic parsec to scan, you'd likely find one or more local bodies (shameless WBH plug: see Empty Hexes, pages 219-224) . Or as I started, ramscoops.

 

[Vormaerin]

Riftspan doesn't seem to have the same description, but the other end of the Island route, Chandler Station, has the following description:

Chandler Station is located in free space but obtains most of its fuel within the Great Rift. A squadron of jump-1 capable tankers ply to and from half a dozen nearby comets, where ice-mining operations crack ice to make hydrogen fuel.

 

[ottarrus]

Rift stations can exist, but they're expensive as Hell.
Presuming the station does not have an ice comet or other foreign body to anchor it, you have to ship in every single necessity and luxury from a 'shore' supplier. And even if the station IS anchored to an ice comet, there's no guarantee that the ice is actually water. You can make starship fuel out of all kinds of gaseous elements, and almost none of them are potable.
Therefore, rift stations require regular resupply runs containing food, water, liquid hydrogen starship fuel, every conceivable dry good from starship parts to dental floss. This is a massive undertaking, costing tens of millions of credits per year per station.

IMTU, it is an open secret that the Imperium maintains SOMETHING in the Rift to shorten the communications time to Capital. THOUSANDS of Naval and IISS personnel have been to these 'calibration points' over the years, though only their astrogators know the right coordinates Speculation at the bar of Eneri's Spacer Saloon has all sorts of ideas... the guesses range from stations to a fleet of tankers to an Ancients device [although this is at the wilder end of the spectrum].
The Admiralty maintains strict security at these calibration points and the authentication codes are changed at random. Station commanders have clear orders to apprehend or destroy anyone jumping into the vicinity and who does not broadcast a valid code. And even if the ship does broadcast the proper codes, every vessel is boarded by an inspection team to put 'eyes on' the crew, ESPECIALLY if the ship is not an active duty IN or IISS vessel.

 

[Vormaerin]

You could set up Riftspan the same way, despite it saying otherwise. At worst, you have a non public refueling cache between Riftspan and Filantred. So you have specialized rift crossing Jump 2 tankers that can carry the necessary fuel to the station. Which, admittedly, does have a huge market up on fuel for this reason. 10x normal prices, IIRC.

Presumably the company that owns Riftspan (its technically private, whereas Chandler Station is basically a military base) doesn't want competitors, so keeps the refueling station secret. And doesn't have one between Riftspan and Amondiage at all.

I don't think a lot of ships pass through from the Imperium to the Islands. In my campaign, I have a single long liner that runs a loop from Tobia to Filantred on as fixed a schedule as jump variance allows. And there's a few specialized trade ships that go from Filantred to Amondiage delivering goods for the megacorps wealthy enough to make this run feasible. There's an infrequent J4 Jump Tender that delivers ships to the Islands for those that feel obliged to ship their yacht or whatever. IMC, that is pretty much a Tobia to Zuflucht transit. That ship only makes about 4 round trips a year. Those kinds of ships don't come in through the more limited and more corporate Riftspan station for various reasons.

 

[Vormaerin]

Rift stations can exist, but they're expensive as Hell.
Presuming the station does not have an ice comet or other foreign body to anchor it, you have to ship in every single necessity and luxury must be shipped in from a 'shore' supplier. And even if the station IS anchored to an ice comet, there's no guarantee that the ice is actually water. You can make starship fuel out of all kinds of gaseous elements, and none of them are potable.
Therefore, rift stations require regular resupply runs containing food, water, liquid hydrogen starship fuel, every conceivable dry good from starship parts to dental floss. This is a massive undertaking, costing tens of millions of credits per year per station.

Some of that will depend on how good you think fabricators are. You might just have to ship fabricator goop for most of that But yeah, Chandler station has hydroponics gardens, an extensive ice cracking operation, and more but it is still far short of self sufficient and resupplying there is insanely expensive. Riftspan is not even that well off.

 

[ottarrus]

Some of that will depend on how good you think fabricators are. You might just have to ship fabricator goop for most of that But yeah, Chandler station has hydroponics gardens, an extensive ice cracking operation, and more but it is still far short of self sufficient and resupplying there is insanely expensive. Riftspan is not even that well off.

And because of all those facilities, Chandler [arguably the largest Rift calibration point] has more personnel assigned to it. And every one of them has a tongue. Granted, 99% of them don't know the coordinates but even its existence is an important secret.

 

[ottarrus]

You could set up Riftspan the same way, despite it saying otherwise. At worst, you have a non public refueling cache between Riftspan and Filantred. So you have specialized rift crossing Jump 2 tankers that can carry the necessary fuel to the station. Which, admittedly, does have a huge market up on fuel for this reason. 10x normal prices, IIRC.

Presumably the company that owns Riftspan (its technically private, whereas Chandler Station is basically a military base) doesn't want competitors, so keeps the refueling station secret. And doesn't have one between Riftspan and Amondiage at all.

I don't think a lot of ships pass through from the Imperium to the Islands. In my campaign, I have a single long liner that runs a loop from Tobia to Filantred on as fixed a schedule as jump variance allows. And there's a few specialized trade ships that go from Filantred to Amondiage delivering goods for the megacorps wealthy enough to make this run feasible. There's an infrequent J4 Jump Tender that delivers ships to the Islands for those that feel obliged to ship their yacht or whatever. IMC, that is pretty much a Tobia to Zuflucht transit. That ship only makes about 4 round trips a year. Those kinds of ships don't come in through the more limited and more corporate Riftspan station for various reasons.

The Islands Enclave really isn't all that important to the Third Imperium. Politically, the subsectors are open sore of rivalries, agendas, and hatreds that would take half a sector Fleet to fully pacify [assuming the Emperor ordered a full and complete occupation]. And the Imperial Navy doesn't have the tonnage or the careers to waste on it.
As I see it, the Imperium's best course is the 'carrot and stick' approach of hard diplomacy and soft occupation. Encourage the various 'powers' of the Islands to accept client state status, but use the threat of interdiction if any state gets too stupid. It's easy to blockade the whole area by simply occupying one or two worlds at each end of the run. From there, assemble a squadron from the mothball fleet from the Gushemege Depot and activate some Reservists. Then send that fleet into the Islands to destroy any fission or fusion power plant. After that, the Islands will die on the vine.

 

[Condottiere]

Sure they exist.

Question probably would be if it's worthwhile maintaining them.

Before fission reactors went prefusion, I'd say stock up on radioactives.

 

[phavoc]

Earlier I had done some back of envelope math a series of J-2 stations seems best suited to stretch across a rift. It would mean you would consume roughly 45-50% of your ships mass as fuel, and with minimal systems you could keep your crew minimal and you'd be able to drop off another roughly 20% of your displacement as fuel as cargo.

So multiple ships on the ends to build up your initial fuel dumps and then fewer ships to relay that fuel inwards. Depending on how many ships need to cross you should e able to cover about 10 parsers before it starts to get too unwieldy as an overall system. Ships traversing it would be paying a significant premium, and you could build it up to support fleet moments- but only with a lot of planning and time.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Empty hexes are not empty.
Rogue planets, brown dwarves, rogue comets, rogue asteroids, dust, hydrogen.
The trick is to find something which you can build a base around - planet, brown dwarf or rogue comet would be best.

If you want to do it the hard way you have a couple of choices, find a large Oort cloud object and move it - this could take years or decades depending on the canon you want to use.
Transport fuel using fuel efficient jump drives that use drop tanks for the journey to the truck stop.

 

[Vormaerin]

And because of all those facilities, Chandler [arguably the largest Rift calibration point] has more personnel assigned to it. And every one of them has a tongue. Granted, 99% of them don't know the coordinates but even its existence is an important secret.

What? Chandler Station's location is not a secret. Nor is Riftspan Station.

Also, I have no idea what you are talking about with the Imperial conquest post. The Imperium has shown no interest in absorbing the Islands. They are useful as a Rift crossing. If it wasn't for that, they'd probably be ignored almost entirely.

Obviously, they could conquer them pretty easily if they shifted the necessary resources. But the Imperium hasn't shown any interest in military conquest of anyone in centuries, IIRC.

 

[ottarrus]

Empty hexes are not empty.
Rogue planets, brown dwarves, rogue comets, rogue asteroids, dust, hydrogen.
The trick is to find something which you can build a base around - planet, brown dwarf or rogue comet would be best.

If you want to do it the hard way you have a couple of choices, find a large Oort cloud object and move it - this could take years or decades depending on the canon you want to use.
Transport fuel using fuel efficient jump drives that use drop tanks for the journey to the truck stop.

Most empty hexes ARE empty, or more to the point empty of anything useful. Brown dwarfs and rogue exoplanets? Comets and asteroids? You might as well look for needle in barn full of hay. Your odds would be better. Dust is useless and hydrogen isn't available in any quantity at all unless you're using a ram scoop, and nobody in Charted Space uses those outside of the occasional fringe science experiment. It's like trying to navigate a Jump using a Babbage calculator. What's next? Solar sails on warships? [Note: a nod to the ridiculous technologies of Lt. Leary RCN there]
Certainly every parsec of space [or at least the Milky Way's corner of it] probably has some form of matter in it. But bits of dirt, space pebbles, and puffs of random gas are so useless that it might as well be empty. Anything, anything at all, placed in a blank hex is in the realm of the referee throwing a life preserver to a misJumped crew.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Most empty hexes ARE empty, or more to the point empty of anything useful. Brown dwarfs and rogue exoplanets? Comets and asteroids? You might as well look for needle in barn full of hay. Your odds would be better. Dust is useless and hydrogen isn't available in any quantity at all unless you're using a ram scoop, and nobody in Charted Space uses those outside of the occasional fringe science experiment. It's like trying to navigate a Jump using a Babbage calculator. What's next? Solar sails on warships? [Note: a nod to the ridiculous technologies of Lt. Leary RCN there]
Certainly every parsec of space [or at least the Milky Way's corner of it] probably has some form of matter in it. But bits of dirt, space pebbles, and puffs of random gas are so useless that it might as well be empty. Anything, anything at all, placed in a blank hex is in the realm of the referee throwing a life preserver to a misJumped crew.

I am not sure that this narrative description lines up with the math in Geir's new book.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You need to do a lot more research on what exists inside an "empty" region of interstellar space, both in the real world and in Traveller canon.

I could have mentioned small black holes too.

 

[Vormaerin]

Nah, they aren't empty. There are 131 known stars within Jump 6 of Earth that we know about in IRL. Only 32 of them show up on the Travellermap.

IMC, easy jump routes don't exist to all stars. Sort of an extrapolation of the shoals and whatnot. But the idea that what's on the map is all that there is doesn't hold water.

 

[Geir]

I am not sure that this narrative description lines up with the math in Geir's new book.

I probably underestimated it. Recently there's logic (or somebodies paper that got quoted in more popular press anyway) saying there are twenty times as many rouge planets in the galaxy as stars - so more planets between the stars than planets around stars. Of course that depends on the definition of planet (Up with Pluto and all its round neighbours!).

But for that matter, rifts aren't really rifts - they're dark clouds that likely have stars in them (just passing though, rift or star depending on your Point of View) and the gaps between 'spiral arms' are more gaps in new star formation, not necessarily in the amount of mature stars.

 

[Condottiere]

Access to exotic particle collector technology.

 

[Nelphine]

I think the point is that identifying a planet (ot anything else less noticeable than a star) that isn't near a star is practically impossible. And a hex is so massive that the chance of randomly finding anything within range of M6 engines before your power plant gives out, isn't reasonsble.

Sure, there might be 20 rogue planets in that hex. That doesn't mean you'll ever see them. So then the logic is, for practical purposes of setting up a rift station, an empty hex is completely empty. (Even though its not actually empty. Practically empty and actually empty are very different things.)

 

[Nelphine]

To put it in perspective, if we pretend our solar system is the diameter of plutos average orbit, which would make it 80 au, and we pretend it was a square, then you could fit ~6,250,000 solar systems into one hex.

If you scatter 20 rogue worlds in there, you have a 1 in 312,500 of guessing a solar system sized body of space that has a rogue world in it. And even then, its really really hard to find something the size of a planet in a solar system. If you have the resources of a world to find it, sure. A mere starship? Even a tigress sized science vessel would take a long time to find such a thing without a nearby 'sun' for reference.

(If you did somehow know which solar system sized body of space had a rogue world, a tigress sized science vessel could find it before it ran out of power. An average 2000 dton science vessel couldn't. If you don't know the solar system sized body of space, a tigress size science vessel would run out of power years before finding a rogue planet.)