Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata

[Vormaerin]

I am certainly not of the "Everyone in battle dress and fusion guns" camp, but I do think that the "Imperial Army is intentionally equipped at TL 12" is going way too far the other way.

The problem is not that some units are not TL15. Even in the FFW game, some units were lower TL. But that the vast majority of the units are state of the art for the Sylean Federation and the founding of the Third Imperium (aka 1100 years ago) and ill equipped to face the Zhodani that they have fought 4 wars with.

 

[MasterGwydion]

My viewpoint is this, no government can afford to take 100 years to upgrade their military units. The Third Imperium has been TL-15 for over 100 years. Some part of it has been TL-16 for 15 years and TL-15 for over 300 years by 1105.

 

[MonsterX]

Remember though, 1 soldier in TL-15 Battledress with a Fusion Gun is worth way more on the battlefield than 500 TL-8-equipped soldiers. So, you can spend 500 times as much per soldier for a much higher return on investment.

That is not necessarily true, depending on what you need to do. Battledress and a fusion gun gives a very specific set of capabilities, which if that is what you need then 1 TL 15 soldier is what you want.

A battalion of TL 8 soldiers would have weapons that could take out that TL 15 soldier, and do many other things as well. A well-placed RPG, or even anti-material rifle shot and that battledressed soldier is done. And a TL 8 force facing battledress will be kitted out with this stuff - probably more than just as squad support weapons. This doesn't mean they'd be successful against a TL 15 soldier - there is more to it that theoretically being able to penetrate his armour.

I can't imagine you'll have much luck engaging insurgents in a civilian environment by blasting everything in sight with a fusion gun. You'll have trouble fitting through doors - fine if you can just level the building instead but not so good if you have to pay compensation to the owners. Or if you might need the building later. You need people who interact with civilians, search inside places, etc,, so manpower more than firepower for many tasks.

On the other hand, if you pimp up your Battledress in the right way, the TL 15 soldier could dance circles around the TL 8 battalion, finish his mission and be back home before they TL 8 soldiers are any the wiser. Active camo, point defense, high-mobility, a variety of integrated sensors, could easily allow you to outmaneuver a lower tech enemy; you'll have much better situational awareness, and only be vulnerable to certain squad support weapons, tanks and artillery.

Where the TL 15 forces would excel would be the ability to put a very high level of firepower quickly in a specific spot. You'll need to keep moving, avoid letting them get organized to concentrate high penetration weapons on you, which you've got the technology to do.

So there are different roles and whether having high-tech expensive gear varies (or which kind of high tech gear you need - and what you don't).

 

[MonsterX]

I am certainly not of the "Everyone in battle dress and fusion guns" camp, but I do think that the "Imperial Army is intentionally equipped at TL 12" is going way too far the other way.

That's true. It would make sense that they would generally equip active duty troops in high risk locations to TL 15, but this would not mean battledress and fusion guns for everyone - just for those at the sharp end. There would be lower tech equipment where it was more economical and not so important, but not for the most crucial equipment. The fact they might need to accept lower tech replacement gear as supplies ran low, would be factored in to training and doctrine. There might be lower tech gear in storage for those in reserves, but this would probably not go as low as TL 12, and of course local troops are whatever tech they are.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That's true. It would make sense that they would generally equip active duty troops in high risk locations to TL 15, but this would not mean battledress and fusion guns for everyone - just for those at the sharp end. There would be lower tech equipment where it was more economical and not so important, but not for the most crucial equipment. The fact they might need to accept lower tech replacement gear as supplies ran low, would be factored in to training and doctrine. There might be lower tech gear in storage for those in reserves, but this would probably not go as low as TL 12, and of course local troops are whatever tech they are.

You are talking about technology that was developed over 300 years ago and became common across the Imperium over 100 years ago. I find it hard to believe that they are stockpiling over 100-year-old equipment. TL-12 equipment is 1,100-year-old technology. TL-14 is almost 500-year-old technology. Regardless of Battledress or not Battledress. In warfare, given an equal political situation, in general, the force with the better weapons and better training wins. In forces with equal levels of training, the technologically superior force wins. There are exceptions such as in Korea when a million screaming Chinese came running over the border. Some were well-equipped, but other didn't have guns made in the same century. The numerical advantage in that case overcame better technology and better training.

As for not everyone in Battledress, I am sure many troops are wearing TL-15 Combat Armor as well.

Edit - Although, if you lose the soldier in combat, you lose the value of the armor and all of his equipment as well. Paying an extra 200 or 300 grand for a lot of extra survivability might make sense, even if they don't all have fusion guns.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Fifth Frontier War boardgame counters show the bulk of the Imperial Army at TL15. The regular Imperial Army units are those black on red, the white on red are the colonial troops.
There are 7 TL15 5c field army regular units, only 1 TL14 5c field army, then there are 4 TL15 1c corps, and 2 TL14 1c corps, 5 TL15 20 divisions, 3 TL14 20 divisions, 4 TL15 10 brigades, 2 TL15 5 regiments, and 2 TL14 5 regiments.

Total combat factors - TL15 40c +50
TL14 7c + 70

The white on red colonial forces include a further 2 TL15 5c field armies

The bulk of Imperial Army and colonial forces are TL15.

Now onto the marines and huscarls - there are 8 TL15 5 marine regiments, total 40., and 6 TL15 1 huscarl batalions for a total of 6

Imperial Army TL15 40c +50 (4050 combat factor total)

Imperial Marines TL15 40, so the regular Imperial Army outnumbers the Imperial Marines 100 to 1.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The TL11+ battlefield now has to take into account meson ortillery, by TL15 meson artillery.

The Imperial Army fighting a war against a near peer opponent on a TL14/15 battlefield is facing a very different environment to anything historical or even near future warfare can imagine, apart from one thing that is, a soldier not in battle dress is going to be dead as soon as the artillery opens up.

The battledress is needed so the soldier can plug into the various battlespace sensor, EW, loitering munition, robot, drone, remote munition, vehicle, orbital support networks and kill webs that permeate the battlespace.

The battledress is needed to carry the comms, sensors, networking, EW, point defence, decoys, anti personnel and anti-vehicle personal weapons, it's own dedicated sensor/EW "drones"...
your infantryman is effectively carrying the electronics of an F-35, only better, the air defence capability of Iron Dome/Beam, only better
the infantryman sees a 360 degree display of their immediate area of operation, with data provided from multiple sources, they are in constant comms with squad mates and team leaders, superior NCOs and officers

What I don't understand is why more isn't made of cyber, biotech and drug augmentation... all within the rules and part of the Mongoose Third Imperium.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The battledress is needed so the soldier can plug into the various battlespace sensor, EW, loitering munition, robot, drone, remote munition, vehicle, orbital support networks and kill webs that permeate the battlespace.

The battledress is needed to carry the comms, sensors, networking, EW, point defence, decoys, anti personnel and anti-vehicle personal weapons, it's own dedicated sensor/EW "drones"...
your infantryman is effectively carrying the electronics of an F-35, only better, the air defence capability of Iron Dome/Beam, only better
the infantryman sees a 360 degree display of their immediate area of operation, with data provided from multiple sources, they are in constant comms with squad mates and team leaders, superior NCOs and officers

Couldn't this all be integrated into TL-15 Combat Armor?

What I don't understand is why more isn't made of cyber, biotech and drug augmentation... all within the rules and part of the Mongoose Third Imperium.

I agree that this would be fun.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Couldn't this all be integrated into TL-15 Combat Armor?

Some of it, probably. Possibly downsized and so less range. The advantage of the Str augmentation of BD is the sheer amount of gear the BD can carry.

I agree that this would be fun.

Certainly worth exploring...

 

[Vormaerin]

I half suspect that TL 12 was picked because it almost still resembles a present day military in a way that a TL15 army seems unlikely to do. If that's not the case, all the "how today's military functions" pages wouldn't get to be written.

I don't think battle dress is the only way to have the EW augmentation that seems likely. Combat armor or other such should be able to provide that less expensively. But we don't actually know what kind of budget we are talking about. It just seems that the logistics train that goes with battledress in the rules would make it less universal.

There's tons of unanswered questions about the Imperial military. Like, were grav belts even mentioned anywhere in the traveller publications in a military capacity? Who actually uses the combat drug that is so ubiquitous in Traveller's gear rules over the decades?

 

[Galadrion]

Personally, I think the argument has gotten a little rabbit-holed on the issue of battle dress and FGMPs - not every trooper is going to be fitted out with these, just as not every member of the U.S. Army rides around in an Abrams M1E3, carrying a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher. Different mission require different TOEs, and those will be available.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, the problem is that this book missed the mark entirely. Instead of telling us what TL 15 armies looked like and how it functioned without being all battledress and FGMPs (the actual only TL 15 gear we have (other than the WTF ion rifle?), it says "gosh, we have a lot of TL 12 gear so we'll just decide the Imperial Army isn't fighting the last war, it's fighting five wars back with gear that was obsolete during the Solomani Rim war and the Imperial Civil War.

 

[Condottiere]

You should think in terms of sustained, continuous operations.

Current experience indicates the rear areas are going to be under threat.

It seems unlikely that support personnel are going to be issued powered armour.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Couldn't this all be integrated into TL-15 Combat Armor?

The book does mention that stuff like the electronic sights of ACR’s and the Looksee drones can be integrated into combat armour

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

One thing I wonder about is stealth - or the lack thereof. No vehicle seems to have any form of stealth, despite it likely being massively advantageous - especially for the Imperium, given that their most likely opponent is stated to be mid-TL insurgents and the like.

The Trepida, Astrin and Invader from The Third Imperium book all have stealth…

 

[MasterGwydion]

One thing I wonder about is stealth - or the lack thereof. No vehicle seems to have any form of stealth, despite it likely being massively advantageous - especially for the Imperium, given that their most likely opponent is stated to be mid-TL insurgents and the like.

The Trepida, Astrin and Invader from The Third Imperium book all have stealth…

For vehicles, I would say, wait for the new Vehicles Handbook to be released. That may help things out vehicle-wise.

 

[Terry Mixon]

For vehicles, I would say, wait for the new Vehicles Handbook to be released. That may help things out vehicle-wise.

I can’t believe they didn’t use the new rules for these.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I can’t believe they didn’t use the new rules for these.

My guess was the Vehicle Handbook wasn't ready in time for the authors of Armies to include it.

 

[Vormaerin]

I think it is unreasonable to expect Mongoose to publish vehicles using an as yet unreleased rules set that only a few forumites are even aware of. The vast majority of customers would have been confused and/or annoyed that their product the purchased today wasn't usable until they buy something else months from now.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I think it is unreasonable to expect Mongoose to publish vehicles using an as yet unreleased rules set that only a few forumites are even aware of. The vast majority of customers would have been confused and/or annoyed that their product the purchased today wasn't usable until they buy something else months from now.

As opposed to having the vehicles in the book they just bought being inaccurate for years once the new book comes out in a few months.