Armageddon Ships

[Jhary]

no no, Mongoose have said they will release a new book every year, as I say, it is more likely to be a supplement, eg the first shadow war..

Sorry but mongoose said a lot of things since ACTa hit the marked.
and Hold nothing.
What was with the small supplements.
Then the anoucement IN S&P all rule changes.
The SFOS then Armagedon and weeks after the Arma the Anouncment for the 2Ed. So i expect 2 - 3 Month after the "ed the anouncment for an supplement. What again will boost the speed do more balancing and so on.

 

[Locutus9956]

New Stealth Rules: Yes, we used them.

And what about the revised damage tables, special orders and in fact all the other minor yet signifigant rules changes. Sure they could be released in S&P but sooner or later theyd have to go in a proper rules book.

Split EA lists: If you aren't an EA player this was worthless(I don't play EA) and took up a huge chunk of the book(37 out of 96 pages). This gave us the new Sagg too. I should note we had another 11 pages of just pictures after this meaning 48 out of 96 pages were commited to stuff of absolutely no value to someone who doesn't play EA.

Frankly even if you dont play a fleet having its fleet list is still far from worthless. Rule 101 of war. Know your enemy. And its hardly like Mongoose pulled a fast one, we KNEW a large chunk of armageddon was going to be the redone EA lists. The only thing I WOULD say was a little cheap was republishing in full, with pictures, the ships that appeared in multiple lists, multiple times. That struck me as shameless 'filler'.

Revised White Star: Could've been in S&P just like they had to do with the Sagg after it's Armageddon version broke the game far worse than the White Star did.

And the redone Victory, and the WS Carrier, and the WS Gunshis, and the WS fighter. Basically, despite my continued loathing for the new ISA ships in armageddon the fleet list for the ISA doubled in size and the existing ships had a makeover too.

New Ships: We're still waiting on about a third of them. Including the two I wanted the most. Six more pages that were effectively a waste. Total wasted pages: 54 out of 96.

This isnt really the fault of the book though is it. There WERE models released at the time but they met with such negative reactions that Mongoose (wisely) decided to redo most of them. You can always use substitute models if your desperate to use them in the meantime though.

Raiders: You mean someone actually uses them? Still lets say this is useful.

Yes people use raiders! Just because theyre not the powergamer fleet of choice doesnt mean theyre not fun to play!

Vorlon/Shadow Updates: Suddenly, people had a lot of ships that they couldn't use anymore due to their very high priority levels. I'll count it as useful in a "well I won't be facing them too often other than hit and run Vorlon Cruisers" sort of way.

Ok here Im going to have to MASSIVELY disagree. The revised Vorlon and Shadow lists put them at the levels they always should have been at. I think anyone who disagrees on this point really needs to watch the shows/again. Simply put if you want to fight a normal sized Vorlon or Shadow fleet youre going to have to play a BIG game, having their ships weakened to the point where younger race ships can stand toe to toe was just WRONG. If the game doesnt feel like Babylon 5 its just not going to float for most people imho.

The only thing I WILL agree on there though is that the shadow fleet box is now very top heavy, but frankly, the shadow fleet box was ALWAYS very top heavy. This however for most people is not really an issue as most people I know (myself included) just use shadow ship models to represent hunters as they/I HATE the hunter design anyway.

And we have a 7 page FAQ for errors that were in previous suppliments we paid for. So 61 pages out of 96 that have no value(the FAQ should've been a free PDF). So a $25 book for 34 pages of stuff. Oh wait. Add another 8 pages for things such as advertisements and large pictures taking a whole page to say stuff like "Ancients". So I paid $25 plus tax for 26 pages worth of stuff. This increases to 63 pages if you play EA. So about a dollar per page unless you play EA.

Frankly this is just over top ranting. sure, there were a few wasted pages in the repeated ships in the EA list, and there were a few pages of pictures (but frankly its called presentation, its to make the book look nice! If you want nothing but pages of text then fine but frankly Id rather have a book that at leat looks pretty I'm not saying Armageddon was the best thing ever and lord knows the FAQs shouldnt have been necessary to begin with, but they WERE so you cant really blame them for actually fixing their previous mistakes! As for the price.... $25? It's hardly THAT expensive. Its just over HALF the price of SFoS.

So yes, I'm more than a little annoyed with the Armageddon fiasco.

What bugs me here is not that some people have issues with Armageddon. I can certainly see where theyre coming from and it was certainly far from perfect but frankly I still think the game is better with Armageddon than just SFoS. The pricetag, in terms of gaming books is not really that much. Hell its about the same as a SINGLE ARMY BOOK from a certain other well known games company....

The main big sticking point for me though is that 99% of all the armageddon winges I've read have been people seemingly complaining that the book doesnt contain stuff that MONGOOSE NEVER MADE ANY PRETENCE THAT IT WAS GOING TO CONTAIN. Pretty much the full contents of armageddon was widely publicised way before it ever came out. Look at the product description on the website. It basically lists the entire contents of the book. If you bought it after reading that and then complain that it contains EXACTLY WHAT IT SAID IT WOULD, then I'm sorry but you havent got a leg to stand on.

Armageddon is a SUPPLEMENT. If you buy it expecting effectively a complete reworking of the rules you're going to be disapointed but as I've said it was never supposed to.

Okay now I need some caffein before I go off on any more rants.

 

[Right Hand of God]

I love the spin being put on the Armageddon model fiasco. Models weren't pulled because they players didn't like them. They were pulled because the moulds kept collapsing and they couldn't make them. Look at the Liati, players universally loathe the ship but it's still out there. Look at some of the Drakh ships that are avaiable, despised by almost everybody as lumpen shapeless garbage, but they are still out there. The ships that didn't make it weren't pulled for our benefit they were pulled because of the molds. There are posts from MGP to this effect whenexplaining the initial delays.

The book was touted as the be all and end all, regardless of anything else the duplicate pages for the EA was shameless filler. Ok so the ISA got some new ships but now why not include a complete fleet list in Armageddon for the ISA instead of spreading it over two books whilst reproducing the EA list 3 times.

If Mongoose had said at the time we aren't going to have these large ungainly hideously sculted ships available when Armageddon is released, or anytime close to it, as a matter of fact you may have to wait until 2nd ed is released, then there wouldn't be the number of complaints because Armageddon wouldn't have sold so many copies and left so many players disapointed.

2nd Ed is MGPs last best hope to keep players on line and playing

 

[Tolwyn]

I at least hope that the 2nd Ed will change some of the problems of the current version.

 

[Locutus9956]

Well to be honest the moulds may have collapsed but the reason its taking so LONG for them to come back is the fact that Mongoose seem to have taken this opertunity to redo the hated models that collapsed (and I thought they were redoing the Liati, if not... oh deary deary me... ). In fact if I was a suspicious sort I might find it awfully convenient that most of the armageddon ships that everyone hated 'collapsed' so mongoose can redo them without admitting they sucked....

As I said overall, though I'm not saying Armageddon was a great product but I do think the game is better for it (the duplicated EA ships though were disgraceful though as I said before!)

 

[emperorpenguin]

In fact if I was a suspicious sort I might find it awfully convenient that most of the armageddon ships that everyone hated 'collapsed' so mongoose can redo them without admitting they sucked....)

So I'm not the only one who thought that! 8)

 

[H]

So if a player only plays one race, will the 2e fleet book be considered worthless, since there will only be around 10 pages of use to him?

I know we will get criticism for 2e, constructive and otherwise. It is the otherwise that I take issue with.

fine, do you want to hear this

Armageddon was a fantastic book, absolutely the best ever, it was well worth the excelent price, and I can't believe more people bought it. It was brilliantly supported by the models that were released to support it.

now then, that helps no-one really does it. but if it makes you feel better?
I didn't critiscise arm with no reason, I explaineed my reasons, which many many people agree with as well. if you won't even take a wee bit of critisism mostly about the pricing that YOU didn't set, how can you expect to manage with what comes back from second ed? just relax, let it go.

 

[Greg Smith]

Hiffano, it wasn't your criticism that I had a problem with. It was Celisasu's statement that Armageddon was 'worthless'.

Armageddon has its flaws. The EA list was reprinted in its entirety, which is very handy for EA players to have all the info in the same place, but the Shadows and Vorlons didn't get that treatment, meaning Shadows and Vorlon players have to use both Armageddon and SFoS.

The FAQ and Errata should have been made available for free for anyone who didn't want to buy Armageddon.

And the Sagi was too good and the WS Gunship and Liati not good enough.

As a general supplement to the game, I thought it did a pretty good job. Obviously some players were unhappy because it only contained a few pages useful to them, while others would have been happy with it if there was just one new ship for the Drakh or Dilgar.

But I would suggest that every page of such a supplement isn't neccesarily useful for everyone - for example how many people have actualy used the ancients? Played the gigantic Drakh plague scenario? Sometimes these things are just interesting to read.

-------

As a general rule I don't respond to such criticisms, but Celisasu's post just caught me on a bad day. And now I feel the need to justify my response.

 

[H]

well then, after 2nd ed is released, don't read the forums on bad days ;-)

I think armageddon is best left in the past, and we should all look forward to second ed, new ships, re-casts, and some good games!

 

[Tolwyn]

I agree with Hiffano.

Let's look forward to the 2nd Ed.

 

[DB]

Originally I played Fleet Action B5, when that folded I put the ships away for a while.
Then I bought VAS from my local shop, after I saw how good it was I noticed the Armageddon supplement. The shop had only got in B5 RPG up to then so I knew nothing about this game, but I liked what I saw and about 3 weeks later at the local show I found the rest of the game.
So say what you like, but Armageddon was a good buy as far as I'm concerned!

 

[Darzoni]

So if a player only plays one race, will the 2e fleet book be considered worthless, since there will only be around 10 pages of use to him?

I know we will get criticism for 2e, constructive and otherwise. It is the otherwise that I take issue with.

Well, if the player isn't reading up on his opponents' capabilities, then the fleet book is useless to him. It's the same reason I keep copies of all the WH40k Codices even though I don't PLAY every army.

At least Mongoose makes an effort to keep all the fleets in one book instead of selling them piecemeal like the 800 lb. gorilla does.

 

[Ripple]

For the record I am looking forward to second edition, and not just as a source of 'fixes'. I am honestly excited by the prospect of some real re-envisioning of certain ship types and whole fleet structures, as well as potentially cool rules changes. (Still don't like the beam thing, but eh...)

That in no way changes my wanting the company (and to a degree the playtest community) to know what I thought of the previous major product. As has been hashed out on this board before, THIS is the time to make comments... waiting until after you see what the company has to offer is useless, the product is already finished. At that point your just whining to no real affect.

The complaints about Arm. are pretty clear. Price for value, obvious filler, inconsistent treatment of the same topic, paying for errata and pre-release hype that was not lived up to, and some questionable ship designs.

The highlights are also fairly clear. Some great new ships, some much needed steps to correct stealth and fighter operations, needed re-works of some ships, addition of some iconic material (ancients). Not everything has to be usable in many battles to be good.

Ripple

 

[Greg Smith]

For the record I am looking forward to second edition, and not just as a source of 'fixes'. I am honestly excited by the prospect of some real re-envisioning of certain ship types and whole fleet structures, as well as potentially cool rules changes. (Still don't like the beam thing, but eh...)

I'm with you. I'm excited by it, and I know what's in it.

The complaints about Arm. are pretty clear. ...
The highlights are also fairly clear. ... Not everything has to be usable in many battles to be good.

Again, I quite agree with you.

 

[Right Hand of God]

Another good thing about the imminent release of 2nd ed is that all of us with more money than sense can finally bin our copies of Armageddon. Now that has to be worth the price

 

[thePirv]

Another good thing about the imminent release of 2nd ed is that all of us with more money than sense can finally bin our copies of Armageddon. Now that has to be worth the price

Better yet is that those of us with too much sense and never bought Armageddon now definitely don't have to

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Hmmmmmmmmm

Where to begin.

Firstly, I bought Armageddon and don't feel ripped off.

Secondly, Whether it's bad molds or fan reaction, the weaker ships in Armageddon are being resculpted. So we're getting better ships.

Thirdly, putting the three EA fleets seperately, with full stats, there is at least one good reason for this. When your selecting or using a fleet, it is much more convinient to have all the ship stats together rather than spread out amongst ships you can't use. So personally I'm happy with the way they did it, as it's more useful for me. I know others don't see it this way, that's fair enough.

There were a few issues I had with Armageddon, certainly not saying it's perfect.

First, the pages of pictures, I would have preferred interesting fluff to read rather than pictures.

Second, I wasn't a fan of many of the new armageddon level ships. Fortunately a number of them are being resculpted.

Just trying to balance the fight here and show that not everyone was rabidly unhappy with Armageddon.

 

[thePirv]

To be fair, not everyone disliked Armageddon, but I do remember that not long after it came out, there was a poll on the forums asking opinions.
Around half the forumites who posted were unhappy with Armageddon.
So while a lot of people liked it, to have half the target purchasers being unhappy is not a good result.
Lets just hope that lessons were learned and that 2e is a damn sight better recieved. (and to be honest, most of what we've been told so far has been well recieved, so fingers crossed the rest is as good)

 

[Celisasu]

Yeah, the 2nd Edition reset will be a good thing. Less books to lug around and search through, and presumably more balanced fleet lists. I hope in either the fleet book or rule book they include a page that you can photocopy that is just a blank ship listing to write down your ships, traits, weapon systems and crew/damage scores(along with spots to list upgrades for campaign games). It's easy enough to get or make online but I do have a few friends who prefer not to use the internet so they'd probably benifit from having a page they could just copy like that.

And if the Ka'Bin'Tak and G'Vrahn are arriving soon I need to hurry up and order that T'Rakk. I've been lazy about that as it really isn't needed in my fleet(I just want one for fleet completeness sake) but I don't want to be ordering too many items at once.

 

[arbaily]

Guess it's going to be a long long time before I get anything hard hitting for my Drazi fleet

Isn't the Stormfalcon enough for you ? :wink:

Don't have one of them in my fleet at the moment. It's near the top of my shopping list though