Are Gaim THAT good?

[Jybbah]

Hmm, to expensiv. Only two ships, will not work (i guess)

Some Ikorta or Brikorta, or a Milani with Tiraca´s

With many Breching-Pods out, there are not many Troops left on the Gaim-ships. Ikorta with 10 Troops are a good choice.

All ships a bit more then 6´´ away from each other (no multipe Targets for e-mining) and forward for all.

CU

 

[Voronesh]

An ikorta has 22 damage points on hull5. Its not going to survive long enough for it to have an effect. And with Ikortas you actually MUST hope for a mistake on the Gaim player side. Unless you make a 1-5,1-6,2-5,2-6 crit the Gaim player wont slow down to let you do that. And if you take enough of them for them to have an effect, you are reaching a fleet size, where either:
A: The ships cannot support each other due to haveing short ranged weaponry, or you are going to get hammered by Emines because of the large template.

A Halik or two are nice, as they stop 2 out of 3 qin options, but then emines can still remove that threat rather quickly. And if that doesnt work, massed Breaching pods could still wear one down, it only has 3 troops....and Gaim drones are just cut above the rest....

And in response to the Takata plus Halik idea, it might work, but i give that combination no chance at all against another tourny fleet. Alot less chances at least than 1 shadow ship plus shadow scout.

 

[Da Boss]

.
What im wondering is that there are so few people complaining, unlike 1 year ago with the Sagittarius case. I agree that a more balanced Gaim fleet (utilizing different ships) would be certainly more balanced against other races, but the "armageddon" early era EA and the sag were like that too.

Well I think we are all trying to work through ways of beating them before complaining which is a civilised way of doing things A large can of Raid is the other way of doing it I suppose?

 

[victor romeo]

It all comes dwn to what was said on page 1; the Gaim are optimised for raid level. Go higher and the war level ships are capable of taking them down. This is always the weakness with tournament play; you have to create a balanced fleet to take on all comers which means an extreme fleet can always take advantage. I suspect in a campaign this advantage would be reduced for the Gaim, random FAP levels and players being able to change their fleets depending on who they are playing is a good leveller.

 

[Davesaint]

The Pakmara might be able to do it now that they have the plasma web. Bring lots of hull 6 Squadron Up(2 ship squadrons), and hope your torps will matter against the Ships. It might very well be a losing proposition, but you have e-mines, AF dice, and long range torps with hull 6. You could run 2 squadrons. 3 Urikals in one and 2 in the other. It would be a very close run thing though.


Dave

 

[Voronesh]

It all comes dwn to what was said on page 1; the Gaim are optimised for raid level. Go higher and the war level ships are capable of taking them down. This is always the weakness with tournament play; you have to create a balanced fleet to take on all comers which means an extreme fleet can always take advantage. I suspect in a campaign this advantage would be reduced for the Gaim, random FAP levels and players being able to change their fleets depending on who they are playing is a good leveller.

Your are correct, but this is not the core of the problem. This fleet is optimised for tourny play (5 point raid format / 1point armageddin isnt used). What i am trying to prove is that this fleet can take all comers; basically what a standard tourney fleet is supposed to be able to do; and still beat most of them to a pulp without really pushing too much of a sweat. And that while campaigns are nice and good, i play mostly one offs with my friends so i have a semitourny format (we do play 5point battle mostly though, but that would be 20 of these buggers OUCH). A tourney fleet that has 60% chance of winning every game when both players are euqally good at the game, is grossly unfair, and i have a feeling this fleet can do far better.

Thanks Da Boss for the civility reason ^^, makes me happy to see someone see us as a civil group .


Pak'ma'ra i cant really ascertain yet, because my rulebooks just arrived at my LGS (hopefully) and so i can only start reading them next week (gonna visit my GF for the weekend ). So they might be able to win, but even then, its only a single fleet out of many, even if it works.......

The only other fleet that might be able to do it, is the Drakh, but they really need to remove all those Breaching pods real quick to win....... And if all large ships have been conquered, the Gaim fleet cant really lose due to VP :S.

 

[katadder]

the drakh is actually best bet, you just have to shoot the pods with actual weapons as you cannot allow them to board.
1pt armageddon would work to effect the Gaim as they start at battle to would have to take 3 battle queens, a raid ship and 2 skirmish queens or some such, although i would probably go with 3 battle queens and 2 raid ships.
perhaps this is a way to counter their effectiveness.

 

[Triggy]

the drakh is actually best bet, you just have to shoot the pods with actual weapons as you cannot allow them to board.
1pt armageddon would work to effect the Gaim as they start at battle to would have to take 3 battle queens, a raid ship and 2 skirmish queens or some such, although i would probably go with 3 battle queens and 2 raid ships.
perhaps this is a way to counter their effectiveness.

But you have to admit, more and more it's looking like the Gaim are at least a little overpowered (I freely admit it was very, very hard to balance them with their unique style and no frame of reference to start from).

 

[Davesaint]

the drakh is actually best bet, you just have to shoot the pods with actual weapons as you cannot allow them to board.
1pt armageddon would work to effect the Gaim as they start at battle to would have to take 3 battle queens, a raid ship and 2 skirmish queens or some such, although i would probably go with 3 battle queens and 2 raid ships.
perhaps this is a way to counter their effectiveness.

You cant use 1 armageddon as a "balance point" though Katadder as that is not possible under the scenario generator.


Dave

 

[Silvereye]

The Pakmara might be able to do it now that they have the plasma web. Bring lots of hull 6 Squadron Up(2 ship squadrons), and hope your torps will matter against the Ships. It might very well be a losing proposition, but you have e-mines, AF dice, and long range torps with hull 6. You could run 2 squadrons. 3 Urikals in one and 2 in the other. It would be a very close run thing though.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking a few pages back. It also looks like a decent fleet against against most other races too.

On the subject of War Pl + Raid Buddy, how do people think a Neshatan Gunship (Hull 6 vs the bombs) and Ashinta would fare, or a Bin'Tak (over-armed, damage sponge)/G'Vrahn and Var'Nic? While the Shadows win with the outright survivability, the Narn are heavily overarmed on tough hulls, and the Minbari are packing Neutron Lasers and Twin-Linked fusion cannon.

 

[Davesaint]

The Pakmara might be able to do it now that they have the plasma web. Bring lots of hull 6 Squadron Up(2 ship squadrons), and hope your torps will matter against the Ships. It might very well be a losing proposition, but you have e-mines, AF dice, and long range torps with hull 6. You could run 2 squadrons. 3 Urikals in one and 2 in the other. It would be a very close run thing though.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking a few pages back. It also looks like a decent fleet against against most other races too.

On the subject of War Pl + Raid Buddy, how do people think a Neshatan Gunship (Hull 6 vs the bombs) and Ashinta would fare, or a Bin'Tak (over-armed, damage sponge)/G'Vrahn and Var'Nic? While the Shadows win with the outright survivability, the Narn are heavily overarmed on tough hulls, and the Minbari are packing Neutron Lasers and Twin-Linked fusion cannon.

I don't think the Shadows will survive. I would take the Gvrahn for it's e-mines, and then I might take a Gkarith instead of the Varnic. More mines to kill fighters

Hard to say with the Minbo's. The Ashinta is E-mine bait, and the fighters might do quite well against the neshatan. I think I would still favor the Gaim, but maybe 70-30 instead of 90-10 against most other races.

The Narn are about the only race that can get to the 50-50 win chance against the Gaim. The Gkarith is your favored hull with it's every turn firing pulsar mines. Makes me wish it was still a skirmish hull. I would be tempted to field a 5 raid fleet of 3 Gkarith's and 2 Varnic if I was playing only the gaim. It might die against other races though.


Dave

 

[Voronesh]

On the Minbari idea, it could really work, if i couldnt just say Breaching PODS!!! and AAF3 only isnt going to keep them away, neither are the crewed missiles going to play nice. The Ashinta is nice and well, but i would simply use photon boms to tear it apart, if i feel like it, i might burn some missiles on turn 2. LOS means the AShinta cant stay out of arc and once its gone the NEshatan is fodder for Gaim combat drones. Its firepower is very good, and it will probably kill quite a few Queen ships, but simply not fast enough.....Not until those breaching pods slam home, where they really hurt, and then the VP race is over. Sure the Neshatan could use 8AD of twinlinked Minibeam to clear a few, but i dont think its enough for the 40 breaching pod force. (maybe reduced to 30-35)

The Narn do not have an escort, so they are screwed on AF dice, they do have a Dag'Kar though. But it doesnt have enough damage points to survive first turn.....The G'Karith fares better, but it too would die quickly to concentrated fire, OTOH you might have ripped a large hole into the fighter force. But then again against Narn its a good idea to spread out, since everyone in the whole galaxy knows about their emines, which are even called just that.
I think a G'Vrahn might be good enough to kill a queen ship per turn, but youd have to be careful around breaching pods. I dunno, 20 of them would be overkill, and 10 of them should be enough. The G'Vrahn could try tp keep far enough away to not worry about them for a while.
But once they catch up, its the same old story, Breaching pods make enough VP so that only 2!!!!! Queen ships need to survive somehow, to win the game.

Davesaint you unfortunately you forgot the breaching pods against Narn. Though i agree 3 G'kariths is a good idea. 5 troops and the pulsar mine. Currently i cant decide what tactic i would use against them, since all seem valid. Use crewed missiles if they survive against anything and hope for crits. Use any breaching pods that survive and make that Gaim troop toughness prove its mettle, or bomb G'Kariths as they are a huge threat two those two win options, or bomb the Var'Nics as they can kill my Queen ships. Thing is 80AD photon bombs will cripple one ship per turn, it doesnt matter really, but not quite kill it....That could be solved with a few crewed missiles. This fleet does seem to have a decent chance, but i dont think that you could clear close to a hundred threats (seems crazy doesnt it that number), remember all of them will be launched because the Gaim has a 20" range advantag on you, and you cross the table at "only" speed 12 with AAF on G'Kariths. So youd lose at least 1 maybe 2 G'Kariths while closing, and then when all 3 are dead, you pretty much can only lose, even when destroying half of my fighter and pod force.


What i think kills most fleets against this (and i really mean this specific Gaim force) fleet, is the large numbers of breaching pods they can bring into the fray, along with the rest of the firepower and crewed missiles, take them away, and there would be a whole new playing field. Currently i can just use them to autowin a game against a fleet that can be boarded :S.


Dammit i just realized how much ive been typing on this.....seems like a fixation or something. Luckily postcount only makes one count per posting, not per word or so....then id might hate myself for so many words......

 

[Davesaint]

You are prob. correct Voronesh. I just think that the only races that have a chance are races that can bring e-mines. otherwise as G'Kar would say you are just "Dead...Dead...Dead.....Dead...."

 

[stryve]

To loop back a bit, I'd like to mention that the War Globe actually has speed 8 (16 using alternate movement option). Also, it's fore and aft weapons are identical down to the AD, which means it can shoot just as effectively while running away.

 

[Silvereye]

What I was thinking about was hit and run. How much destruction could those particular forces inflict on the Gaim before they can retreat to hyperspace and still win on VPs? I'm thinking you have 2 turns to do so before you make that escape.

Kind of like the Sentient Rabbits mythbust to trash the 10 Saggitarius fleet in Armageddon.

 

[stryve]

That depends on what you bring. With two battle choices (in a raid level scenario), and assuming you avoid getting any of your own ships destroyed/crippled/skeleton, I'd say one raid or two skirmish queens destroyed. With five raid choices you'd need one more ship of any type at least crippled or skeleton crewed.

 

[Voronesh]

I have to say big sorry to all of you, i failed in reading that stat correctly. Yes Ipsha have a speed of 8, meaning they can fly an astounding 16" per turn. Now the only chance the Gaim have are covering, literally covering the field with crewed missiles and Breaching pods, especially breaching pods. Iphsa warglobes cannot be allowed to get within 8" of multiple breaching pods. I dunno, but from personal feeling id guess theyd run out of space(table) rather fast. Sure they can shoot down Breachin pods, but that means less firepower directed at Gaim queenships.

Ok against Ipsha it boilds down to: Hoping not to get a crit in by one of those 60 crewed missile packs, or one of those breaching pods to make contact, but there is a crazy 40 of those around. SAP makes for good chances, but dodge 5+ and TD is a serious waste of firepower and probably reduces your antiship firepower to nothing because those queens have int2.

This fleet is back into the fray for acceptable chances like the Narn fleet. Maybe a bit better chances actually. But its really down to how well the Ipsha can evade........

 

[Silvereye]

That depends on what you bring. With two battle choices (in a raid level scenario), and assuming you avoid getting any of your own ships destroyed/crippled/skeleton, I'd say one raid or two skirmish queens destroyed. With five raid choices you'd need one more ship of any type at least crippled or skeleton crewed.

Thats why I was thinking of a War level sledgehammer. Something that can practically be relied on to gut a Raid ship or vaporise a Skirmish hull each turn.

With the Raid level buddy, I was looking for a cut down battleship (Ashinta) or the well armed brick (Var'Nic). For EA, you could try Warlock and Explorer (easy to hit, slow enough to go nowhere and not do anything, but how much damage to soak?). Any skirmish ships are just going to get minced by the photon bombs.

As a comedy alternative there are always 5 T'Loth for the ultimate in damage sponge. Can you survive until the Gaim get bored and go away?

 

[Voronesh]

Two battle levl choices normally are more survivable or have alot more firepower available. Though this totally depends on the fleet makeup.

You absolutely must have a form of defense against breaching pods and maybe crewed missiles. Shadows and Vorlons achieve this with the fact of being unboardable, other races could be fast enough to get away from them, and have enough AD to shoot them down; this actually being a problem of the Ipsha not enough AP; or have emines yourself to remove breachin pods very quickly.

Many fleets might have on of these options availabel, but often there is another factor missing, to make them vulnerable to one tactic or another on the Gaim side.

 

[stryve]

You absolutely must have a form of defense against breaching pods and maybe crewed missiles.

That's part of why we've started considering hit and run tactics. Bring something with enough hitting power to blow a couple Queen ships, preferably at 30+ range, and then bug out before the swarm fully closes in. At that range you'd probably have two turns before fighters could catch you, and three for the breaching pods. Of course if you have to come in to 20 inches to bring your main weight of fire to bear, things get a little dicy...