Are Gaim THAT good?

One problem as I see it with the Gaim is that they're a specialist fleet. This causes a problem as it really forces the rock/paper/scissors style of gameplay to a much higher degree than other fleets. The massive fighter swarms plus e-mines mean that the Gaim will all but dominate fighter engagements. The generally high hull, damage, and interceptors of their capital ships mean they'll survive quite awhile before going down. Yeah, you can tool a fleet up to crush them but in the process you'll be leaving yourself open to non-Gaim fleets.
 
Exactly Celisasu...

I made a similar comment a few pages back. This is also largely what went wrong with the Minbari at one point. A fleet that while beatable required a special approach making them inappropriate for tourney play. Not because they necessarily win, but because they stop cold players who didn't bring a specialist to stop them.

Ripple
 
once in close most fleets will beat Gaim. Fleets like EA or Narn scare me as they can take the punishment of the long ranged e-mines and fighters for a few turns before flying between ships loosing their broadsides. The Gaim are lacking in short ranged (secondary) weapons and are forced to rely on their auxiliary craft and rare lasers or damage their own fleet to hurt the enemy.

Fer other races are as vulnerable to criticals as the Gaim. Results that don't worry other races (-1AD) cripple Gaim ships. Most of them only have weapons in a single arc and there not that fast in the first place.

The 10 pt skirmish fleet is worth the same as 20 skirmish ships in VP's. You could loose every ship in your fleet and still win in a VP based mission.

Yes, Gaim are tough. Their ships are good and several fleets suffer badly when facing them. They also have their weak points and are far from unbeatable.
 
Ripple said:
Exactly Celisasu...

I made a similar comment a few pages back. This is also largely what went wrong with the Minbari at one point. A fleet that while beatable required a special approach making them inappropriate for tourney play. Not because they necessarily win, but because they stop cold players who didn't bring a specialist to stop them.

Ripple

This is the main problem.

And on another point, Gaim do not need close range wepaonry, as they have 40"photon bombs.
 
Fighting the Gaim is I think going to depend hugely on the scenario - how far apart you set up and if hyperspace is allowed.

:)

I also found it was not a good idea to loose in set up initiative as my opponent set up at an angle to me and then never left the table edge.

another tactic is I guess if they are using paper counters to simply blow them off the table into the void? :D
 
VoroneshAnd on another point said:
...that don't put out much firepower or cause criticals and can be pretty much ignored by tougher ships as they close the range and then overwhelm them at close range.

The Gaim list does not rely on devestating beam weapons or batterys of high AD guns that can kill an enely ship in one or two volleys. It relys on chipping away at the enemy and slowly wearing away their hits. Even the suicide fighters only cause DD!
 
hmm true - to a point

remember your fighters are also precsie and SAP and can't be intercepted Unlike Dilgar ones (?) (though they can be dodged ?) Whats really good about the Gaim is that their main weapon systems ignore all defences except shields/GEGs - making as said the Drakh potentially very good if they can avoid the breeching pods. Not sure about the Shadows - at low levels they are interceptable, perhaps a mission for their fighters - oh wait soooo no!.

The Dynamic squadons also help as potentially the whole fleet can fire before you.

I do recall there was some discusison on the day about Klikkitak missiles and fleet carrier - it is pretty clear from p112 of fleet book (under fighter rules) that they can NEVER be regained from fleet carrier.

I think the scenario will make / break the opposition as much as anything else. :)
 
If it wasn't for the double vps for queens I think they'd be really hard to defeat.
Because you can still win even if you get wiped out through killing the queens they are probably balanced it just means it's a diferent type of game.
From our matches it's been about doing as much damage as you can before the hoards of pods, fighters and mines overwhelms you.
Do think making the energy mines AP was pretty harsh too though.
 
Out of interest which fleets have you been taking against them and how did they do?

Its been said that they are weaker in campaigns but I would presume that would depend heavily on the games rolled as in a camaign sacrificing all of your ships to win is a bit of a gamble? I know they get all fighters etc repalced for free which is very useful but they have nothing above battle, so I guess they would need (and want) -3 on every roll for size of game? Are they any worse in this than Drazi fleets (given their war choice)?

thanks :)
 
I've played against Drakh, EA, Mimbari shadows and Drazi. Currently at 5 wins, 4 losses and one 'moral victory' (draw as we ran out of time).

Most of the wins have been because the enemy ships were crippled due to damage or criticals and retreated. Losses were normaly solid defeats. I´ve been beaten by EA, Drakh and Drazi.
 
inq101 said:
once in close most fleets will beat Gaim. Fleets like EA or Narn scare me as they can take the punishment of the long ranged e-mines and fighters for a few turns before flying between ships loosing their broadsides. The Gaim are lacking in short ranged (secondary) weapons and are forced to rely on their auxiliary craft and rare lasers or damage their own fleet to hurt the enemy.

Fer other races are as vulnerable to criticals as the Gaim. Results that don't worry other races (-1AD) cripple Gaim ships. Most of them only have weapons in a single arc and there not that fast in the first place.

The 10 pt skirmish fleet is worth the same as 20 skirmish ships in VP's. You could loose every ship in your fleet and still win in a VP based mission.

Yes, Gaim are tough. Their ships are good and several fleets suffer badly when facing them. They also have their weak points and are far from unbeatable.

From the Narn, a T'Rakk, Ka'Tan combo is difficult for the Gaim. 6 or so Ka'Tans and 4 or so T'Rakks. You have enough e-mine threat to force him to keep his fighters spread out and this reduces their effectiveness severely as they are only speed 10 (which is incidentally the same speed as your ships).

The T'rakks have loads of hp for their priority while the Ka'Tans have little single-shot e-mines to clear the Gaim fighters.

Launch goriths and form them up away from your ships but in flanking position. Try to draw photon bombs onto them. Any one that the fighters draw is one that doesn't hit your ship. If he doesn't shoot them, engage gaim suicide fighters. Once they are in close with his fighters he won't bomb them. The goriths absolutely will die but any fire they draw is less on your ships. He needs his fighters to do damage, yours are pretty irrelevant.

As for your ships, spread out with T'Rakks leading the way. If the gaim suicide fighters attempt to close, E-mine any groups, use weapons on singletons. Don't worry if a couple will hit. You can take a few of them without a problem unless he gets a lucky crit. Gaim photon bombs simply cannot kill T'Rakks quickly.

Don't be afraid to hit the T'Rakks with an e-mine if you have to. Ignore the non-suicide fighters. Let your side or aft weapons fire on them if nothing else is available, but they can be safely ignored. Also destroy breaching pods. They are slower than anything in your fleet though so they shouldn't be much of a problem.

Summary: You WILL be taking hits from the gaim all the way in. That's ok though, they can't crit and you are pretty tough. Don't give him multiple hits on multiple ships and don't let him hit you with a batch of suicide fighters at once you should have him. Don't forget the heavy lasers on the Ka'Tans.

All those fighters look scary but they only move at 10" per round and that is really all he has that can really ruin your day. Your e-mines will keep him from stacking fighters too close and that massively dilutes their effectiveness. Don't let a single photon bomb hit multiple ships if you can avoid it. Make maximum speed for the carriers and use the Ka'Tans to clear fighters that get in your way.

For the non-Narn:
High maneuverability, high speed ships (white stars, vorchans/demos, shadows, vree, drazi) should circle the gaim out of range to gather the fighters and probe for weaknesses in his setup. His suicide fighters are only speed 10 and they can't touch you beyond that. Don't let him minimize their weaknesses. If you charge him, you are effectively increasing their speed. He has 3 choices with setup:

1. Form the fighters up between his fleet and yours.
2. Form the fighters up in a cloud around his fleet.
3. Group them close to try for massive impact.

#3 is the least likely option. If he does it he made your job easier. Whitestars and fast ships can simply dodge around the stack. #1 is the best compromise and the one you will most likely see. If you have played Starfleet Battles before, you've seen the Kzin use the exact same tactic. They key is don't run through the fighters to get at his ships. It won't work. The narn are the only ones who can do that because they can prevent him from grouping the fighters or punish him if he does group them. Go around them, use the table. (Beware the size of your play table though :D )

Tzarevitch
 
Out of curiosity, how are people playing the fighters/breaching pods getting into contact with enemy ships? I ask this as even under optimal conditions you can only get four in contact with a ship's stem (no where does it make special mention of the base and in all other aspects of the game it's only the stem that counts) in a single turn.

Sure this can mount up over the turns but it seems to me very hard to blow away the bigger ships in a manner most people are suggesting.
 
Tzarevitch said:
For the non-Narn:
High maneuverability, high speed ships (white stars, vorchans/demos, shadows, vree, drazi) should circle the gaim out of range to gather the fighters and probe for weaknesses in his setup. His suicide fighters are only speed 10 and they can't touch you beyond that. Don't let him minimize their weaknesses. If you charge him, you are effectively increasing their speed. He has 3 choices with setup:

1. Form the fighters up between his fleet and yours.
2. Form the fighters up in a cloud around his fleet.
3. Group them close to try for massive impact.

#3 is the least likely option. If he does it he made your job easier. Whitestars and fast ships can simply dodge around the stack. #1 is the best compromise and the one you will most likely see. If you have played Starfleet Battles before, you've seen the Kzin use the exact same tactic. They key is don't run through the fighters to get at his ships. It won't work. The narn are the only ones who can do that because they can prevent him from grouping the fighters or punish him if he does group them. Go around them, use the table. (Beware the size of your play table though :D )

Tzarevitch

thanks - very interesting - however my opponent set up right on the table edge and moved along it - so could not really circle behind - how do you stay "out of range"? when he has 40"? He formed his fighters in a huge mass between me and moved them back as I approached towards his own fleet. As he has a fleet carrier - he had an awful lot out at the start 9thanks to me pointing put this useful rule, doh! :lol: ) The alt was to go through a density 10 asteroid field............and he thought asteroids don't block LOS at the time - clarified later and not make any difference. At start of turn 3 (when I conceeded) I was still out of rmage of my beam (18 and torps 20") due to not going fast enough in his opinion - only 14 " a turn :). His view was that All power to engines was the only way to go - but you thinnk not ? I tried maximum speed on close blast doors but no chance. Am trying to work out if the full speed option would have worked or not.............any help appreciated as trying to think this through for next time :) It may have been better to lurk at the other side of the asteroid field and make him come to me in hindsight?
 
katadder said:
it says base/counter contact for pods. fighters it says into contact which most people take as base.
Interesting - yeah the pods are clear (I added the reference after I'd written the rest of the post without checking the rules) but it's not the way I played it in playtesting and I just realised other people may be playing them differently too. Is there any evidence to back up that they play to the base (which I could make a base the size of the stem anyway) rather than the way it works for every other ship measurement in the game? (that isn't explicitly stated like breaching pods or movement)
 
true but if you play it by stem max you can get is about 4 like you said, which really isnt a threat to anyone, and as the Gaims main weapon thats non recyclable this would severely dent their use against ships using models (but not ships using counters).
think its a bit like the fighters ignoring stalth when in base contact too and thats best way to do it IMO.
 
Da Boss said:
Tzarevitch said:
For the non-Narn:
High maneuverability, high speed ships (white stars, vorchans/demos, shadows, vree, drazi) should circle the gaim out of range to gather the fighters and probe for weaknesses in his setup. His suicide fighters are only speed 10 and they can't touch you beyond that. Don't let him minimize their weaknesses. If you charge him, you are effectively increasing their speed. He has 3 choices with setup:

1. Form the fighters up between his fleet and yours.
2. Form the fighters up in a cloud around his fleet.
3. Group them close to try for massive impact.

#3 is the least likely option. If he does it he made your job easier. Whitestars and fast ships can simply dodge around the stack. #1 is the best compromise and the one you will most likely see. If you have played Starfleet Battles before, you've seen the Kzin use the exact same tactic. They key is don't run through the fighters to get at his ships. It won't work. The narn are the only ones who can do that because they can prevent him from grouping the fighters or punish him if he does group them. Go around them, use the table. (Beware the size of your play table though :D )

Tzarevitch

thanks - very interesting - however my opponent set up right on the table edge and moved along it - so could not really circle behind - how do you stay "out of range"? when he has 40"? He formed his fighters in a huge mass between me and moved them back as I approached towards his own fleet. As he has a fleet carrier - he had an awful lot out at the start 9thanks to me pointing put this useful rule, doh! :lol: ) The alt was to go through a density 10 asteroid field............and he thought asteroids don't block LOS at the time - clarified later and not make any difference. At start of turn 3 (when I conceeded) I was still out of rmage of my beam (18 and torps 20") due to not going fast enough in his opinion - only 14 " a turn :). His view was that All power to engines was the only way to go - but you thinnk not ? I tried maximum speed on close blast doors but no chance. Am trying to work out if the full speed option would have worked or not.............any help appreciated as trying to think this through for next time :) It may have been better to lurk at the other side of the asteroid field and make him come to me in hindsight?

That'd correct. If he is hovering back there, don't approach. Hang back. You have to either kill the fighters quickly (e-mines are the only way I know of to do this) or bypass them. There is no way to run through the fighters while the ship is hitting you too. You'll die.

If his fighters are hovering under the guns of the queenships, stay back and stalemate him. He wants you to rush him with the fighters hoving close to the ships. He is keeping them close so that you can't bypass them and get to his ships. Stalemate him if you have to. Victory conditions may prevent this but if he won't come out, don't go it.

If the fighters come out, use your speed and bypass them. Most raid or skirmish boats are at least speed 10. Vorchans and Whitestars are much quicker. With APTE you can get from outside his weapon range to inside yours on the queenships in a round or 2. You can take a round of fire from his popguns.

To prevent this he is probably not going to approach you. He will do just what he did, move sideways or back a bit. If he is moving on the table edge, you move on the other edge in the other direction. Stay out of range and do not rush him until YOU are good and ready even if it takes all day. It is boring but it will be no worse than a stalemate. He wants you to rush him when he is in position to use his fighters on you, and then you will die.

All I am really saying is the gaim are not impossible to beat. They just use a tactic that was foreign to ACtA until the Gaim arrived. You just need to use unconventional tactics and a LOT of patience (unless you are Narn or Drakh who have a much easier time with them). The gaim really only have 1 trick, it is a pretty good one at low priorities though. You just have to remember that while he has a lot of suicide fighters, that's all he really has for punch and they have to move under fighter rules. Also all of his units are pretty slow for their type. Use this to your advantage although it is by no means a sure thing.

If cover is available, use it. Anything that helps you close range secure from his fire is good.

Tzarevitch
 
when using demos etc as daboss does he cannot play the patience game, as the Gaim will move to 40" and just e-mine you without any retaliation, whilst throwing all his fighters out ready for you.
using a fast fleet like centauri your best bet is to APTE 1st turn, this has the advantage of getting you close where you need to be and the fact the Gaim player hasnt had an end phase to turn his fighters into missiles yet.
you cannot out patient/stalemate a gaim player due to range (especially with centauri). ok e-mines are not huge killers, but daboss played a fleet that could throw out 38 per turn, againts his demos thats 19 hits and average 16 damage so a crippled demos per turn whilst not firing back.
 
katadder said:
true but if you play it by stem max you can get is about 4 like you said, which really isnt a threat to anyone, and as the Gaims main weapon thats non recyclable this would severely dent their use against ships using models (but not ships using counters).
think its a bit like the fighters ignoring stalth when in base contact too and thats best way to do it IMO.
Either way, it'd be nice to get it clarified so there is no issue :)
 
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