Are Gaim THAT good?
- Thread starter Gollum9
- Start date
Although I have to say these aren't particularly good examples if you want to show new fleets that are later proved to be balancedGreg Smith said:
The Minbari had Stealth reduced in effectiveness.
The ISA had the White Star reduced to a 4+ Dodge.
The Centauri beam team was at its best with Prefects and Tertiuses and these were universally agreed as overpowered ships.
This doesn't comment much on the Gaim as I haven't played them in tournament conditions yet but time will tell if people learn how to beat them.
To the 'new kid is always tricky to figure out' comments.
Please try to address the actual question, what tactics would a standard fleet use to defeat the Gaim?
If your answer is take a specialist ship to defeat them (anything with mines, super carrier, etc.) how does this fit in fighting non-gaim fleets?
Right now we're not sure how to beat them locally. We have had some ideas about fleet lists that do well, but they lose to standard fleets. Usually the 'go fast' tactic hasn't worked as by the time you hit 15ish...turn 3 in some cases...the fighter swarm is gonna kill you no matter what you do, as you've been softened up quite a bit.
Our best bet has been a long range bombardment fleet with escort and fighter support. But that loses consistently to ISA/Minbari/Centauri standard fleets.
Ripple
Please try to address the actual question, what tactics would a standard fleet use to defeat the Gaim?
If your answer is take a specialist ship to defeat them (anything with mines, super carrier, etc.) how does this fit in fighting non-gaim fleets?
Right now we're not sure how to beat them locally. We have had some ideas about fleet lists that do well, but they lose to standard fleets. Usually the 'go fast' tactic hasn't worked as by the time you hit 15ish...turn 3 in some cases...the fighter swarm is gonna kill you no matter what you do, as you've been softened up quite a bit.
Our best bet has been a long range bombardment fleet with escort and fighter support. But that loses consistently to ISA/Minbari/Centauri standard fleets.
Ripple
Ripple - the fleet I took in the recent tourney (Omega, Nova, Avenger, Olympus, 2 Hermes) would have a solid shot at a typical Gaim fleet. The fighters would perform a mix of hanging back and escorting your priority ships. The fleet would basically hang back, sniping and launching its fighters slowly (so as to be spread out and out of Photon Bomb range if possibly), using terrain where appropriate (particularly for the fighters). Winning a majority of the Initiative rolls gives you a real edge for picking your fights, as does having the Fleet Carrier to respawn fighters. The aim is to whittle the fighters whilst sniping at Gaim ships, taking down one every two turns or so from the Omega alone. Aim for the Queens for the VPs and simply stall their fighters until you can gain enough VPs to win the game.
the omega was your only shot, the rest dont have the firepower. and spreading fighters out when up against 13 (15 in scotts fleet) seperate e-mine weapons doesnt really work.
basically you are relying on an omega that is actually outranged by gaim photon bombs anyway.
you are also lower init than the Gaim +2 versus their +3 so they usually get to pick the dogfights, oh and have their own fleet carrier plus around 4-5 times the number of auxilary craft.
the idea is right as you said to kill the queens for VPs, however with only one ship doing it and taking 2 turns to kill a queen this will take some time, and thats when skirmish queens, will take longer to kill the bigger one.
if going to use triggys tactics you need multiple beam ships with long range beams. in theory the psi-corps motherships would do ok with 5 of them as they have alot of damage even if hull 4 (cos photon bombs dont do crits) as they can crawl forward on CBD using 20AD of beams a turn and then launch the black omegas when gaim fighters get in range.
basically you are relying on an omega that is actually outranged by gaim photon bombs anyway.
you are also lower init than the Gaim +2 versus their +3 so they usually get to pick the dogfights, oh and have their own fleet carrier plus around 4-5 times the number of auxilary craft.
the idea is right as you said to kill the queens for VPs, however with only one ship doing it and taking 2 turns to kill a queen this will take some time, and thats when skirmish queens, will take longer to kill the bigger one.
if going to use triggys tactics you need multiple beam ships with long range beams. in theory the psi-corps motherships would do ok with 5 of them as they have alot of damage even if hull 4 (cos photon bombs dont do crits) as they can crawl forward on CBD using 20AD of beams a turn and then launch the black omegas when gaim fighters get in range.
Sorry, made the mistake about the initiativekatadder said:
To stall all you have to do is have a few fighters surrounding the Omega each turn and hide the rest of the fleet for this battle. Whether you lose the 3-4 fighters to Photon Bombs or fighters doesn't matter. As the fighters move first, you can't clear the ship before the fighters move in. You can stall for a long time like this and as katadder said, this is far from the perfect fleet to face the Gaim with anyway
actually the omega would never be a target for my fighters, i attack the omega with breaching pods. much better as you dont roll against hull and 40vps makes up for queens.
fighters hit everything else. or you wait one turn making him move fighters 1st so he protects his ships, then photon bomb the ships and get the fighters for free.
learn one thing when fighting Gaim - launch your fighters in the end phase before the Gaim fighters are likely to contact, this way you may have some survivors to actually dogfight, but dont expect to delay the fighters by more than a turn. mostly ignore fighters and go after queens but take better combat vessels with plenty of beams as apart from the carrier almost every Gaim ship you are likely to see is hull 6 with interceptors so the nova and the few paltry missiles triggys EA fleet had were not likely to do anything.
the Gaim are the toughest fleet out there unless fighting drakh which they really struggle against, but anyone else will have an exceptionally hard time to beat Gaim at raid.
however go to higher or lower Pls and the gaims effectiveness tails off due to lack of choice.
fighters hit everything else. or you wait one turn making him move fighters 1st so he protects his ships, then photon bomb the ships and get the fighters for free.
learn one thing when fighting Gaim - launch your fighters in the end phase before the Gaim fighters are likely to contact, this way you may have some survivors to actually dogfight, but dont expect to delay the fighters by more than a turn. mostly ignore fighters and go after queens but take better combat vessels with plenty of beams as apart from the carrier almost every Gaim ship you are likely to see is hull 6 with interceptors so the nova and the few paltry missiles triggys EA fleet had were not likely to do anything.
the Gaim are the toughest fleet out there unless fighting drakh which they really struggle against, but anyone else will have an exceptionally hard time to beat Gaim at raid.
however go to higher or lower Pls and the gaims effectiveness tails off due to lack of choice.
Court Jester
Mongoose
Can we maybe have a third and fourth thread where you preach to us about this stuff katadder...? Two just doesn't feel like enough...
One thing im wondering (or basically which seems justr freaking crazy to me) is that a full fleet, namely ISA, is pretty much autodefeated by them.
Whitout a dedicated Ally option to specifically defeat Gaim, 10 skirmish lvl Queen ships (No fleet carrier), give you enough firepower do defeat the WS real easy. (Nolo'tars might be a solution, but im not too sure). 40AD of AP EMs os going to hurt any swarm fleet into nothingness. So i guess Drazi would have a hard time too..........
Basically i cant think of a standard fleet (not tailored to defeat a Gaim fleet) that can take on 60 fighter flights, 40 breaching pods and 40AD of photon bombs per turn. And there is no chance of loosing your Queens, as every single one of your ships is one. (It will play like the 10 Sage fleet, but im trying to push the envelope here)
Whitout a dedicated Ally option to specifically defeat Gaim, 10 skirmish lvl Queen ships (No fleet carrier), give you enough firepower do defeat the WS real easy. (Nolo'tars might be a solution, but im not too sure). 40AD of AP EMs os going to hurt any swarm fleet into nothingness. So i guess Drazi would have a hard time too..........
Basically i cant think of a standard fleet (not tailored to defeat a Gaim fleet) that can take on 60 fighter flights, 40 breaching pods and 40AD of photon bombs per turn. And there is no chance of loosing your Queens, as every single one of your ships is one. (It will play like the 10 Sage fleet, but im trying to push the envelope here)
victor romeo
Mongoose
Voronesh said:
Think it's tough with ISA, try using shadows against the bugs. At least ISA can have escorts, Fleet Carrier or Anti-Fighter on your Taralin. Let's not even mention Shadow Fighters (again)!
Well at raid they make a very strong contender for my I don't want my ships to die... "Run away!" response.
I can only see Minbari or Gaim dealing with them..erghmm themselves and thats very much hypothetical.
At higher levels I can see other fleets tearing them apart but at Raid they look very strong.
I can only see Minbari or Gaim dealing with them..erghmm themselves and thats very much hypothetical.
At higher levels I can see other fleets tearing them apart but at Raid they look very strong.
another thought...
fleets that totally dominate at a certain PL are another reason that some of us here in the stats run our tourneys with varying priority levels. I feel the 5-point-raid fleet is too standardized, and enjoy having to vary the composition of my fleet for different priority levels and oponnents.
Chern
fleets that totally dominate at a certain PL are another reason that some of us here in the stats run our tourneys with varying priority levels. I feel the 5-point-raid fleet is too standardized, and enjoy having to vary the composition of my fleet for different priority levels and oponnents.
Chern
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
What like 1 pt armageddon.
Has anyone thought about taking the pak'ma'ra against them? Whilst the plasma weaponry can be intercepted, the plasma webs get around this, as well as being able to demolish fighters.
Also, they can throw out a huge pile of Plasma Torpedoes. While the Gaim have large batteries of interceptors, the p'm'r may be able to field them in enough volume to overwhelm the target.
Also, they can throw out a huge pile of Plasma Torpedoes. While the Gaim have large batteries of interceptors, the p'm'r may be able to field them in enough volume to overwhelm the target.
Now this has actually sparked a real discussion. But what we should realize, that we are now suggesting different fleets. But since most people pick a single fleet (or 2-3) to play, you cant simply switch it. Especially at a tourney. And on top of that at tourneys, with 5 point raid, the Gaim are very strong. (i made a mistake, its 80AD of AP EMines broken into twostrong templates).
Not that i actually like ISA, but i certainly dont like it see defated so quickly. Or shadows for that matter.
Pretty much all the advantages of ISA are countered by the built in strengths of the Gaim fleet.
Not that i actually like ISA, but i certainly dont like it see defated so quickly. Or shadows for that matter.
Pretty much all the advantages of ISA are countered by the built in strengths of the Gaim fleet.
Thanks for the reply Triggy.
I think the long range sniping game is a tough to accomplish run. It's hard ot keep range open if the opponent objects...plus they will be using terrain as well.
On the fighters for cover thing...I just not sure I see this working as the enemy swarm is just too large...we'll try a bit of this.
Ripple
I think the long range sniping game is a tough to accomplish run. It's hard ot keep range open if the opponent objects...plus they will be using terrain as well.
On the fighters for cover thing...I just not sure I see this working as the enemy swarm is just too large...we'll try a bit of this.
Ripple
