An Expanded Speculative Trade Process that Uses Broker Like a Skill

[Terry Mixon]

I am continually annoyed that Broker is used completely differently from all other skills when applied to speculative trade. Annoyed enough to finally come up with an enhanced speculative trade process that shows some difference between Forest Gump, the broker plodding along for decades to get Broker-2, and an early Warren Buffett who made Broker-2 because he’s brilliant and on the way up. Brains matter and should count for something.

This is a draft of my thoughts on the enhanced system, and I want to know what you think would make it better. As I say later in this post, the trade system is broken, and this does nothing to ameliorate that. It does, however, break it in new ways that make the Broker skill work like the rest.

The RAW method of speculative trade is pretty straightforward. Your flat broker vs the local broker’s flat broker. The local gets a DM+2 for local knowledge. If you use a local broker, that DM+2 doesn’t count against you, but the 10% average gained in profits goes right into the local broker’s pocket.

Sounds like a racket, doesn’t it? It is, and as long as stat bonuses don’t count for anything, there is no leverage.

Sure, you could use an expert program and get a DM+1, but my assumption is that the local is already doing so, and that you are, too. No net change.

For the local’s skill in Broker/Streetwise, it’s 1D/3. Pretty flat. You might get lucky and get the intern with Broker-1. Or you might just as easily get the Old Man himself with Broker-3. The odds are the same for all three possibilities, which also seems a bit unlikely.

So, first of all, let me lay out an enhanced version of trade at the port.

First up, the DMs for system's trade classification don't change. The DM+2 for local knowledge stays the same. They know the lay of the land, and you don’t. Deal with it.

Skill levels for the locals are still done with a 1D, but the spread changes. Rather than dividing by 2, you let things ride. 1-3 gets you a Broker-1 opposite number, 4-5 gets you a Broker-2 adversary, and 6 gets the Old Man and his Broker-3.

Additionally, there are stat bonuses! 1D for that, too. 1-3 no bonus. 4-5 DM+1, and a 6 is DM+2. Could there be an INT 15 Broker on the loose? Sure, but that’s for the DM to handle, just like if they want to drop a Broker-4 on you.

The players can use their stat bonuses, too, so it can potentially even out, but there is play for smart characters (or dumb ones) to make a difference. That is how skills should work, and now they can!

Let’s take this concept one step further. The goal of all this is ADVENTURE! so let’s get the players out of the port and into places that are ripe for fun.

If the players decide that the port game is rigged (it is), then they can head off port and find deals for themselves! They can’t make up for the DM+2 the locals get, but by cutting out the middleman, they can reduce their offset by 1.

Now, they aren’t working against the local brokers, so they need a skill target to aim for. To work up a potential load of cargo, the difficulty in finding buyers/sellers is Difficult 10+. The timeframe for this is 1D days, with 1 day as the increment.

Making things easier by taking more time seems counterproductive, but one never knows. That would drop it to an Average 8+ task but take 1D x10 days, with 10 days as the time increment.

Feeling froggy? Cut the time and make it a Very Difficult 12+ task, and it will only take 1D x 10 hours, with ten hours being the time increment.

If you succeed, both your broker skill and the Effect of your success are a positive DM to your roll on the prices table. If you don’t, the negative Effect will weigh you down.

One thing that can help you out here is a task chain. Admin for legal cargoes and Carouse for illegal ones. You can get the effect of the chain to boost your chances. Teamwork! The target for these is Average 8+ to get those contacts.

So, as an example, Joe Trader is tired of getting ripped off at the port and heads out to find companies he can do business with. His credits are good.

Over the next week, he and his long-suffering pilot Lazlo hit the pavement, shaking babies and kissing butt. At the end of their week, they make their rolls. Lazlo has Admin-1 and a DM+1 for better-than-average brains. He might have had a DM+2, but he works for Joe, so he can’t be that smart.

Joe has Broker-2 with no DM. Not an idiot, but not the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

Lazlo makes a decent Admin roll of 9 and gets his +1 to make 10. Beat it by 2. That’ll give Joe a +2 to his broker roll! Sadly, he falls a bit short and rolls an 8. The +2 will get him over the threshold, and that gets him no Effect to add to the DM+2 for his broker skill level.

That roll will be 3D+1 because they are not locals (partially offset), but they are out adventuring to find leads. Not bad, but they sure put in a lot of time for the win.

Things would be better with better rolls, and potentially a good bit better with higher skills and stats. In the end, though, the cap is skill level and Effect. If everything goes in Joe’s favor, the most he could get is a final purchase/sales roll of 3D+5. Pretty good, but not likely.

Admittedly, people with higher skills and stats can make bank. The trade system is, as we all know, broken. If they do well, then they will attract the notice of people who don’t like what they see as their money going into someone else’s pockets and will take steps to rectify that situation. What does that mean? ADVENTURE!

Who knows? Joe (and others) might even get to keep their hard-earned profits. Or maybe not.

Thoughts? I'd say other than the inevitable railing that the PCs make too much money already, but that is a given. If there are tweaks that make sense, I'd love to hear them.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Skill levels for the locals are still done with a 1D, but the spread changes. Rather than dividing by 2, you let things ride. 1-3 gets you a Broker-1 opposite number, 4-5 gets you a Broker-2 adversary, and 6 gets the Old Man and his Broker-3.

You might do a pre roll with a 1 meaning the company is just starting up (or is very busy) and those rolls get you a -1 on the broker skill so a 0-2. A 6 goes the other way and you get the elites with a +1 to skill level so 2-4. If you are competing against a local buyer the GM might roll them first and if they get the 6 your 6 counts as a 5.

A low pop planet might give you a further -1 or -2 on skill levels (for low and very low pop) as the really good brokers are on the busy worlds and you might get a "broker" who is either untrained with Jack of all trades or a totally unskilled person with the -3. A high pop planet might raise the skill levels the opposite of a low pop one with a skill increase of 1.

You might use Int or Edu for the stat bonus. You could roll the skill bonus the same way with a peak of 3 of course, you would just be more likely to get that on the high pop planets.

Corporate owned planets might give their people an extra high bonus not because they are good but because mostly they don't NEED to sell to you as they have their own ships and would prefer to use them unless you are paying a LOT to increase their probable profits. The same might apply to lower population planets with 1 or more subsidized merchants delivering cargo for them reliably.

Adds complexity but gives more variance and possibly an incentive to go to lower population planets (where the adventure element may be more common).

 

[Endie]

If you succeed, both your broker skill and the Effect of your success are a positive DM to your roll on the prices table

I was nodding along until this bit. If I read this correctly then the level 4 broker in one group I GM for, who has an edu DM of +2 and a skill augmentation fitted, will be making rolls at +7, meaning an average roll of seven will give them an average effect of +6 as a DM on the price roll when taking their time (which at these profit levels, they will).

That’s not a problem, really, compared to the RAW version: as you say, they’re too profitable already at that skill level and I try to find ways to distract them from trading, as it is. But adding the broker skill for a second time on top of the effect means that you’re really saying that the broker skill is doubled for price calculations (in this case meaning +10 on average). This is going to lead to a whole lot of “buy at 30%, sell at 150%” paydays.

As an aside, the effect should always be used to modify the price, whether success or failure.

 

[swordtart]

I'd favour considering the search for a market as a equivalent to a skill chain with the skill chain modifier used on the roll on the price table.

As the price roll is not a skill check I don't think you can take your time to improve your chances. I am inclined to keep Broker a flat modifier as otherwise it gets too swingy. I leave those rules alone.

If you go in country competition is less stiff as brokers in Starports get their goods from somewhere and must be paying less that the going rate or they won't be making their profit. Local knowledge goes both ways. Starport brokers know the value of their goods as exports. Suppliers may not be so savvy. Bottom line if you go direct to the supplier they don't get the +2 local knowledge modifier.

Any large local supplier will have someone in marketing who has Broker skill (and it may as well be at the same 1D3 level). Where you can clean up is dealing direct with small producers. A farmer may well have no Broker skill. You may well be dealing in smaller lots and you will need to arrange transport to the Starport etc. but it is a good way to improve your margin. They will need a reason to deal with you rather than their usual buyer so expect it to come with conditions.
"Well, normally I deal with Duke at BigTown, and he'd be mighty riled if'n I sold his shipment to a fur'na. I could do with the extra money, but I have been having to pay a tithe to some raiders each season fur !protection". You fellas look like you could handle yourselves. Make it so's I don't need to hand over the tithe and I could let you have it fur a good price...".

This mechanism avoids changing any of the rules, just allowing the find supplier to be a skill chain and allowing few circumstantial modifiers. It also builds in a reason for adventure.

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall, Forrest Gump bought Apple stock.

As I understand Berkshire Hathaway business strategy, it invests conservatively, and maintains a big pile of cash, to do so opportunistically.

 

[Endie]

The amounts available surely have to drop massively if you're going direct to suppliers, however. The starport represents the surplus of a planet (as well as goods en route or delivered from other planets, expecially if it's a big starport that acts as a trade node). If you go to a town and tour the local farmers the amounts available will be fractions thereof (and I suspect that farmers in the far future will still be ensuring financial security by selling a great deal on forward contracts ahead of time).

 

[Micky]

the Broker skill has more applications that merely for 'trade' so yeah I think leaving it as a flat modifier works fine.

While trade/speculative trade is 'broken' it is not what the rules have.. but what it doesn't have that broke it. It treats trade tranaction in a vacuum. No real nod to the competition the traveller trader has in trying buy... and sell material. Other free traders also trying to get face time with brokers, the megacrops who that dominate the setting and may speak for most of the product a system normally would have.. especially on trade routes. Sure you can use the internet to find a broker quickly... the broker though may not have time to see you for days.. a week?

Time... time to find someone to buy and and someone to sell is where the risk really is at. Time is money and time can be the big whammie into buy low and sell high quick path to riches. That and making sure you emphasie that just because you are carrying that large cargo hold of luxury goods you got at a great price.. doesn't mean you are going to find a buyer interested in buying it at the next system.. or the one after that. That is the risk in speculative trade.. having a cargo hold of product no one is buying.

I thought Mongoose v1 has a lot of granularity in mundane aspects of being a free trader .. simply things as you just don't pull up and park when you get to a spaceport. You might be waiting a while for a berth to open up ... a while for customs to get to you... a while to get cargo loaded/off loaded etc. Can add up days to days at a stop. Instead of 3 jump trading trips a month.. you might only get one or two.

I've been working up a revised 'Third Imperium' based trade, freight, passenger system that takes into account the setting, as opposed to the more vacuum/setting agnostic system the Core book has. Basing it for the Core Sector campaign I'm doing. Seems to work good, it will have Travellers living the live of breaking even, not getting filthy rich, and not turning their noses at a measly 6 figure fee for work/an adventure which would otherwise be a huge paycut to buying low and selling high at a whim

 

[Endie]

I just half the increments/decrements on the Modified Price table on page 243, which means in the main that I use 2.5% steps instead of 5% ones in trading. The players still make decent money but not as much as before, when they wanted to optimise the fun out of the game by pretty much just trading. The occasional double-6s means that paydirt is still lying around on occasion, waiting to be scooped up.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I am continually annoyed that Broker is used completely differently from all other skills when applied to speculative trade. Annoyed enough to finally come up with an enhanced speculative trade process that shows some difference between Forest Gump, the broker plodding along for decades to get Broker-2, and an early Warren Buffett who made Broker-2 because he’s brilliant and on the way up. Brains matter and should count for something.

This is a draft of my thoughts on the enhanced system, and I want to know what you think would make it better. As I say later in this post, the trade system is broken, and this does nothing to ameliorate that. It does, however, break it in new ways that make the Broker skill work like the rest.

The RAW method of speculative trade is pretty straightforward. Your flat broker vs the local broker’s flat broker. The local gets a DM+2 for local knowledge. If you use a local broker, that DM+2 doesn’t count against you, but the 10% average gained in profits goes right into the local broker’s pocket.

Sounds like a racket, doesn’t it? It is, and as long as stat bonuses don’t count for anything, there is no leverage.

Sure, you could use an expert program and get a DM+1, but my assumption is that the local is already doing so, and that you are, too. No net change.

For the local’s skill in Broker/Streetwise, it’s 1D/3. Pretty flat. You might get lucky and get the intern with Broker-1. Or you might just as easily get the Old Man himself with Broker-3. The odds are the same for all three possibilities, which also seems a bit unlikely.

So, first of all, let me lay out an enhanced version of trade at the port.

First up, the DMs for system's trade classification don't change. The DM+2 for local knowledge stays the same. They know the lay of the land, and you don’t. Deal with it.

Skill levels for the locals are still done with a 1D, but the spread changes. Rather than dividing by 2, you let things ride. 1-3 gets you a Broker-1 opposite number, 4-5 gets you a Broker-2 adversary, and 6 gets the Old Man and his Broker-3.

Additionally, there are stat bonuses! 1D for that, too. 1-3 no bonus. 4-5 DM+1, and a 6 is DM+2. Could there be an INT 15 Broker on the loose? Sure, but that’s for the DM to handle, just like if they want to drop a Broker-4 on you.

The players can use their stat bonuses, too, so it can potentially even out, but there is play for smart characters (or dumb ones) to make a difference. That is how skills should work, and now they can!

Let’s take this concept one step further. The goal of all this is ADVENTURE! so let’s get the players out of the port and into places that are ripe for fun.

If the players decide that the port game is rigged (it is), then they can head off port and find deals for themselves! They can’t make up for the DM+2 the locals get, but by cutting out the middleman, they can reduce their offset by 1.

Now, they aren’t working against the local brokers, so they need a skill target to aim for. To work up a potential load of cargo, the difficulty in finding buyers/sellers is Difficult 10+. The timeframe for this is 1D days, with 1 day as the increment.

Making things easier by taking more time seems counterproductive, but one never knows. That would drop it to an Average 8+ task but take 1D x10 days, with 10 days as the time increment.

Feeling froggy? Cut the time and make it a Very Difficult 12+ task, and it will only take 1D x 10 hours, with ten hours being the time increment.

If you succeed, both your broker skill and the Effect of your success are a positive DM to your roll on the prices table. If you don’t, the negative Effect will weigh you down.

One thing that can help you out here is a task chain. Admin for legal cargoes and Carouse for illegal ones. You can get the effect of the chain to boost your chances. Teamwork! The target for these is Average 8+ to get those contacts.

So, as an example, Joe Trader is tired of getting ripped off at the port and heads out to find companies he can do business with. His credits are good.

Over the next week, he and his long-suffering pilot Lazlo hit the pavement, shaking babies and kissing butt. At the end of their week, they make their rolls. Lazlo has Admin-1 and a DM+1 for better-than-average brains. He might have had a DM+2, but he works for Joe, so he can’t be that smart.

Joe has Broker-2 with no DM. Not an idiot, but not the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

Lazlo makes a decent Admin roll of 9 and gets his +1 to make 10. Beat it by 2. That’ll give Joe a +2 to his broker roll! Sadly, he falls a bit short and rolls an 8. The +2 will get him over the threshold, and that gets him no Effect to add to the DM+2 for his broker skill level.

That roll will be 3D+1 because they are not locals (partially offset), but they are out adventuring to find leads. Not bad, but they sure put in a lot of time for the win.

Things would be better with better rolls, and potentially a good bit better with higher skills and stats. In the end, though, the cap is skill level and Effect. If everything goes in Joe’s favor, the most he could get is a final purchase/sales roll of 3D+5. Pretty good, but not likely.

Admittedly, people with higher skills and stats can make bank. The trade system is, as we all know, broken. If they do well, then they will attract the notice of people who don’t like what they see as their money going into someone else’s pockets and will take steps to rectify that situation. What does that mean? ADVENTURE!

Who knows? Joe (and others) might even get to keep their hard-earned profits. Or maybe not.

Thoughts? I'd say other than the inevitable railing that the PCs make too much money already, but that is a given. If there are tweaks that make sense, I'd love to hear them.

Here is a problem with this as I see it. Obviously there are more, but as @Terry Mixon said, the base system is bad, we are just tweaking it here to make it a little better, not actually fixing the whole thing.

When you deal with a broker in a starport, are you buying cargo or are you selling shipping space? If you are selling shipping space, then you never own the cargo, so it is not spec trading. You can't go to the manufacturer and ship cargo for them. They likely already have contracts for that, so you'd get the scraps.

For spec trading though, you are actually buying the goods as if you are their end-user. I can go to almost any manufacturing company in the world or their distributor and buy their products. On Earth today, I can just do that on the internet. It doesn't require a broker. Look at brokers on Eart now. They mainly are there to navigate the international taxes. I have never had to use a broker to buy products if they are not crossing an international boundary. I have bought materials to build 1.2 million square feet of office buildings and never used a broker. I just called the companies that made the products, ordered them, and paid some other company to deliver them to the job site. Since taxes and such aren't really part of the game, what does a broker actually do? On a lower tech planet, I get it, but if a client can just hop on the internet and buy what they want and get overnight delivery to the starport, what does a broker actually do? On Earth currently I can get worldwide delivery in 24 hours. If it is too big to be moved by plane or truck, then it may take a few weeks to get to me on a boat, but that wouldn't usually be a problem on high tech worlds with grav transport. I would hope that would improve with the higher technologies of Charted Space.

 

[swordtart]

The amounts available surely have to drop massively if you're going direct to suppliers, however. The starport represents the surplus of a planet (as well as goods en route or delivered from other planets, expecially if it's a big starport that acts as a trade node). If you go to a town and tour the local farmers the amounts available will be fractions thereof (and I suspect that farmers in the far future will still be ensuring financial security by selling a great deal on forward contracts ahead of time).

Absolutely, but for Adventurer Travellers speculative trade was supposed to be a side gig. Most of their hold should be freight. If they can afford 80 DTons of speculative trade goods then they have won

We like to imbue people of the far future with much better sense than history would reasonably support. The machine age was supposed to free us from labour, but here we still are doing 9-5 to survive. Small farmers might still sell to local markets as selling everything to big corp means big corp gets to set the prices.

 

[Condottiere]

Originally, I thought smuggling diamonds.

Arbitrage seems more likely.

 

[swordtart]

Here is a problem with this as I see it. Obviously there are more, but as @Terry Mixon said, the base system is bad, we are just tweaking it here to make it a little better, not actually fixing the whole thing.

When you deal with a broker in a starport, are you buying cargo or are you selling shipping space? If you are selling shipping space, then you never own the cargo, so it is not spec trading. You can't go to the manufacturer and ship cargo for them. They likely already have contracts for that, so you'd get the scraps.

For spec trading though, you are actually buying the goods as if you are their end-user. I can go to almost any manufacturing company in the world or their distributor and buy their products. On Earth today, I can just do that on the internet. It doesn't require a broker. Look at brokers on Eart now. They mainly are there to navigate the international taxes. I have never had to use a broker to buy products if they are not crossing an international boundary. I have bought materials to build 1.2 million square feet of office buildings and never used a broker. I just called the companies that made the products, ordered them, and paid some other company to deliver them to the job site. Since taxes and such aren't really part of the game, what does a broker actually do? On a lower tech planet, I get it, but if a client can just hop on the internet and buy what they want and get overnight delivery to the starport, what does a broker actually do? On Earth currently I can get worldwide delivery in 24 hours. If it is too big to be moved by plane or truck, then it may take a few weeks to get to me on a boat, but that wouldn't usually be a problem on high tech worlds with grav transport. I would hope that would improve with the higher technologies of Charted Space.

You are not required to use a broker, you just get a price break if you do. The check is to find a Supplier or Buyer.

If you buy goods it does not necessarily make you an end user either. If you are buying 10 Dton of raw materials to build a house you are, but if you are planning on selling it then you are not. If you need to export, have foreign currency exchange etc. then getting an expert involved will probably save money in the long term. These things are already bundled up in the abstract price roll. A broker simply makes the price better for you (by whatever means he uses).

You probably didn't decide you needed raw materials on the Monday and then find a supplier, negotiate a price and get delivery in time to make jump at the end of the week. The price you paid was likely the going rate or a good enough, not the best rate in the world. When we are turning materials into a product we don't always mind if the materials are a little too expensive as the delay will cost us more. If I need a new bulb I can spend a few days getting one shipped in from China for a few pence. If I need one right now, I may have no choice but to buy it locally for several times that price and possibly take whatever they have. If you buy from many wholesalers you are dealing with a broker. They didn't make those goods, they just bought them in bulk or offered their services to the actual manufactureres as a sales front for them.

Brokers buy in bulk when the goods are cheap, store them and then sell them on to visiting ships when they need them. Rather than having to potentially learn a different language, research what a fair price is currently for whatever random commodity you are picking up (1DTon of Common Ore is not necessarily 1 DTon of iron ore it could be any low value ore or a mixture) find a reputable supplier and convince them to let you have some at a bargain price at a time of your convenience, you just go to a local who already has the trade relations in pace and possibly a small stockpile.

On those AG worlds there is a growing season and a harvest time. The Broker can buy those goods at harvest when they are cheapest. When you turn up 4 weeks before harvest you won't be able to get them from a farm at all, you will have to deal with a wholesaler or warehouse and they will probably be working through a broker who sells on commission.

Back in the day Broker was like a stock broker and Trader was the skill for buying and selling. On the skill conflation it was rolled into a single skill (and the stocks and shares side is pretty much deprecated). It is just an agent and makes perfect sense they will have offices in starports or the capital.

Sure if you buy goods in large enough quantities you can deal directly with suppliers, but many won't be interested in the hassle of dealing with the public as there are a raft of consumer protections that they don't want to touch. Selling to a wholesaler or retailer transfer those issues.