Alien Module 3: Darrians Preview

[Captain Jonah]

Not intending to insult anyone at Mongoose but designing ships with deliberate flaws like this is silly .

Not putting in missiles storage for a missile armed ship that can make spare tonnage available is what I mean by silly. In point of fact being missile armed allows the scout to engage and possibly damage an enemy at very long and distant ranges while running for it. Missiles make more sense than short or medium range beams which expose you to far more enemy fire. Or replace the missiles with sandcasters for better defence except that you than have no sand rounds either.

Its like giving the ship 100 tons of drop tanks, what is the point of the extra fuel if it drops the tanks anyway?

IC writeups is fine, the clasic Type S with its stories of underpowered lifesupport is the sort of thing I mean here. Not deliberately flawed but something with character. Having a ship smell doesn't make it less capable in combat, for a small empire surounded by enemies to deliberately use ships which are flawed makes no sense.

They can pull them all into a class C starport and retrofit a magazine and 1 ton of missiles to significantly improve combat performance without using up a shipyard bay. Its fairly quick, not too expensive and improves every ship in the class across the whole fleet. Fielding a ship with a missile turret and no missiles is suicidaly stupid for a small power.

Captainkacks IC brief does the job for explaining why the ship has limited ammo but to not give it any ammo at all is just odd. Even for a new ship design the crew would do something or the local shipyards would be called upon to produce a stopgap mod till the fault could be worked out later.

This sort of thing does happen in real life, people do sit down and decide that brand new aircraft carriers have no need of weapons because they will be surounded by escorts but sooner or later sanity arrives and they get something welded on where there is a gap (not looking at the UK carrier program here).

For ships that have been in use for a while such errors cannot still be around. New construction lemons and first generation design flaws will be worked out and fixed, if for no other reason than the designer/manufacturer will charge vast ammounts for the improvement program.

It is one thing to use examples of crap british army radios, which didn't work under certain circumstances (like rain ) and another to look at a starship with a worthless weapon system. Modern vehicles are upgraded to cover problems in combat. If your apc only carries a limited amount of ammo for its machine gun the crew will have extra ammo stashed in every nook and in a pack on the back of the turret.

Every generation of Traveller has had silly ship designs and every generation of players and refs have looked at them and laughed. I point at the liner 00 from merchant prince as a fine example here.

Flaws and quirks which give a ship character are fine and add depth to a game, deliberately flawed ship designs insult peoples inteligence and lower peoples opinions of the designers. As designers you should never design stuff that is so deeply flawed without having a very very good In game reason or someone else to blame :twisted:

If I ever meet the person who designed the afore mentioned liner 00 I will be predisposed to treat him like an idiot till I find out he may not be

 

[DFW]

Not intending to insult anyone at Mongoose but designing ships with deliberate flaws like this is silly .

I could understand if it was a "new" design and they wanted to simulate stupidity. But, if it is supposed a long produced ship, it is a VERY lame reason. But in MGT, bricks have good glide ratios, H-fuel cells produce twice the power as fusion PPs, etc., etc...

 

[captainjack23]

Actually, the simplest fix would be to declare the fuel processors and/or tank mounts configurable space. Then one could switch things around between missions based on one of the next one.

And, I do agree that ship crews would have some extra missiles stashed. I imagine it looking like a WW2 U-boat, with food supplies and etc stashed everywhere, while extra missiles are in the half ton of cargo space.

As a last thought, I'd add that PT boats can't reload in action and have a very hard tie doing it anywhere but dockside. Perhaps the missiles in the turret are simply for a single high value shot using a very high value missile.

But, yes. Its a design decision by mongoose, possibly a strange one. But, honestly, it has generated a lot of flavor text and discussion which has (mostly) been interesting. It's way easy to fix for YTU; and while others disagree, I think occasionally having a ship design that is intended to be a dog -(and its not even that -it just has essentially a one shot launcher) is an interesting change for games. Like any other rule, if you don't like it, it can be ignored.

 

[captainjack23]

I could understand if it was a "new" design and they wanted to simulate stupidity. But, if it is supposed a long produced ship, it is a VERY lame reason.

Actually, that it's a long produced design is my lame idea ( )- I don't think the actual writeup says one way or the other.

 

[Captain Jonah]

As a last thought, I'd add that PT boats can't reload in action and have a very hard tie doing it anywhere but dockside. Perhaps the missiles in the turret are simply for a single high value shot using a very high value missile.

If they had torpedoes yes but a dinky little 50kg missile can be hand loaded by a two people and a handy winch or scratch built A frame

Anyway even a nuke does two whole dice, all three of them are hardly a threat to anything bigger than small craft or fighter. Of course if we can talk mongoose into adding higher tech missiles that make a bigger boom that may work but not with dinky little point defense missiles.

 

[captainjack23]

As a last thought, I'd add that PT boats can't reload in action and have a very hard tie doing it anywhere but dockside. Perhaps the missiles in the turret are simply for a single high value shot using a very high value missile.

If they had torpedoes yes but a dinky little 50kg missile can be hand loaded by a two people and a handy winch or scratch built A frame

Anyway even a nuke does two whole dice, all three of them are hardly a threat to anything bigger than small craft or fighter. Of course if we can talk mongoose into adding higher tech missiles that make a bigger boom that may work but not with dinky little point defense missiles.

Good points all. Consider that idea rebuked.. I still get surprised by how non-dangerous nukes are - even relative to them being in space - but to avoid ending campaigns every game, it's probably a good idea.

Possibly, part of the issue is that there is a strangely low number of missiles that can be stored in a ton....but that's another argument, right ?

 

[Captain Jonah]

As a last thought, I'd add that PT boats can't reload in action and have a very hard tie doing it anywhere but dockside. Perhaps the missiles in the turret are simply for a single high value shot using a very high value missile.

If they had torpedoes yes but a dinky little 50kg missile can be hand loaded by a two people and a handy winch or scratch built A frame

Anyway even a nuke does two whole dice, all three of them are hardly a threat to anything bigger than small craft or fighter. Of course if we can talk mongoose into adding higher tech missiles that make a bigger boom that may work but not with dinky little point defense missiles.

Good points all. Consider that idea rebuked.. I still get surprised by how non-dangerous nukes are - even relative to them being in space - but to avoid ending campaigns every game, it's probably a good idea.

Possibly, part of the issue is that there is a strangely low number of missiles that can be stored in a ton....but that's another argument, right ?

Arguments, no arguments round here

Well I would be happy to get some tech improvements in and start tossing 3D missiles and 6D nukes around :twisted:

Previous version have been 20 missiles per ton, I guess Mongoose just has much larger and clunkier ammo loaders which need to take up space in the magazines rather than being built into the turrets. Those steam powered loaders and conveyor belts really don't leave much room for missiles

 

[DFW]

Actually, that it's a long produced design is my lame idea ( )- I don't think the actual writeup says one way or the other.

Doesn't count as that's a supposition not the actual intent behind the reality.

 

[captainjack23]

Actually, that it's a long produced design is my lame idea ( )- I don't think the actual writeup says one way or the other.

Doesn't count as that's a supposition not the actual intent behind the reality.

:? ????????????????????????? :?

 

[DeadMike]

I was looking forward to the Darrian book. Now I am having doubts. I always believed them an intelligent race, having fended of two larger enemies. Now I am beginning to wonder how they would have done this if they would let such obvious design flaws go by. You sure this isn't just a cover for a flaw not by the Darrians, but by Mongoose?

 

[rust]

Hmmm ... somehow I fail to see the problem. :?

The task of a scout is to jump in, collect data, and jump out again, either
when it has collected the data it was sent to collect or when it is spotted
and an attack is imminent. The task of a scout is not to fight, which is why
real world scout planes and surveillance aircraft are rarely armed at all.
And for a craft that has the mission to avoid combat in order to escape
with the collected data the weaponry seems quite sufficient - if the scout
does not manage to escape after one round of combat at most, its crew
has fumbled the scouting mission badly.

So, if you see this scout as the fictional equivalent of an U-2 or AWACS,
it is not surprising that it does not have more missiles, it is far more sur-
prising that it does have any missiles at all.

 

[rinku]

Missiles are a good option as a stand off weapon to cover retreat, and they could have some flexibility for survey work (not hard to conceive of payloads other than warheads). The lasers would mainly be there for point defence.

 

[DeadMike]

Hmmm ... somehow I fail to see the problem. :?

The task of a scout is to jump in, collect data, and jump out again, either
when it has collected the data it was sent to collect or when it is spotted
and an attack is imminent. The task of a scout is not to fight, which is why
real world scout planes and surveillance aircraft are rarely armed at all.
And for a craft that has the mission to avoid combat in order to escape
with the collected data the weaponry seems quite sufficient - if the scout
does not manage to escape after one round of combat at most, its crew
has fumbled the scouting mission badly.

So, if you see this scout as the fictional equivalent of an U-2 or AWACS,
it is not surprising that it does not have more missiles, it is far more sur-
prising that it does have any missiles at all.

From what I read, the task of this scout is to jump in, scan and then send the info to a specific point for the fleet to get when it jumps in. The ship needs to survive long enough to do this. Wouldn't point defence be an obvious choice for a ship with this mission? The ability to fend off attacks makes much more sense to me then the ability to toss out a half a dozen missiles. Could just be me though.

 

[rust]

From what I read, the task of this scout is to jump in, scan and then send the info to a specific point for the fleet to get when it jumps in.

It does not have to send the data from the location where it collected
them, it can just as well retreat to a safer location when in danger of
an attack and transmit the data from there. I would expect this to be
the normal procedure, because it would simply be stupid to risk the
loss of the scout and the data.

 

[AndrewW]

I was looking forward to the Darrian book. Now I am having doubts. I always believed them an intelligent race, having fended of two larger enemies. Now I am beginning to wonder how they would have done this if they would let such obvious design flaws go by. You sure this isn't just a cover for a flaw not by the Darrians, but by Mongoose?

I wouldn't judge a race based on one ship. Don't forget if you don't like something change it, the missile turret is easy to replace with something else if so desired.

 

[BP]

Hmmm... don't know much about these Darrians, but hard to see this ship's lack of more missiles or alternate turret weapons as a pivotal part of their story...

Also sound more like opinions about what 'makes sense' in a fictional setting than MGT having broke its own design rules?

That would be a bad design - or errata material. Modern fighters don't carry more missiles in storage than they have ready to fire - why should a craft not really designed to engage an enemy, rather flee from it, be any different?

Scout ships are hardly gonna make it in any kind of real starship battles - generally they are small and lightly manned. A soldier who is a scout is hardly expected to engage the enemy - especially when easily out numbered and out gunned. He gets out fast to relay information. Don't see the role of a scout ship as much different.

 

[rinku]

Modern fighters don't carry more missiles in storage than they have ready to fire - why should a craft not really designed to engage an enemy, rather flee from it, be any different?

Apples to Oranges. 1 ton of missile storage is 1/200th of this ship's volume, and fighter jets normally carry all their missiles externally anyway (this is starting to change for stealth reasons, i.e. F-117 and F-22). A better comparison would be naval vessels, which do carry reloads, or with internal ammo storage for guns. But I agree that this ship does not need a large magazine.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Wow, away for three days and Darrians blows up over a design aspect of a Scout Ship they are in the process of replacing - as I specifically wrote elsewhere in the book.

Yes, to whomever was questioning the lack of missile magazine space, it WAS a deliberate design. Its a scout ship, and uses its speed and armour to keep out of trouble. It is not designed to sit around exchanging fire with other ships. The missile salvo simply covers its retreat whilst fast cycling and gives a pursuing patrol vessel a few minutes to reconsider.

In fact there's a second military scout ship in the book, and that one isn't even armed. For very good reasons I can assure you.

As for the drop tanks that was my mistake. I should have made it 2.4 tons but I was using a fan written excel spreadsheet to generate the ship so there was a granularity problem. I should really have worked it out on paper, but at the time I wasn't even sure it was permissible to subdivide base units in the RAW.

So those who are complaining about lack of missiles are free to follow Rinku's level headed suggestion and grab the spare 1.6 tons as missile magazine, or just replace the missile turret with a something else.

Further more, this should not be taken as an indication of other Darrian ships being lemons. The one SDB which made it into the book is a mean little mother (its bigger sibling was downright evil). But as I said earlier, the book specifically states that the Darrians are in the process of upgrading their Scout fleet with new designs.

Now perhaps we could return to a more civilised conversation. Pre-Maghiz antimatter torpedoes for example...

 

[DFW]

Wow, away for three days and Darrians blows up over a design aspect of a Scout Ship they are in the process of replacing - as I specifically wrote elsewhere in the book.

Based on other glaring errors & inconsistencies in other books, Mongoose would do well to have some of the more knowledgeable players act as editors
before text is finalized in future books...

 

[rust]

Based on other glaring errors & inconsistencies in other books, Mongoose would do well to have some of the more knowledgeable players act as editors
before text is finalized in future books...

Since those knowledgeable players have a tendency to disagree with each
other, as dozens of flame wars on various forums show, I very much doubt
that this would do any good.