Age Of Conan - Books Series (4 trilogies)
- Thread starter The King
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VincentDarlage
Mongoose
I read three of the four trilogies.
Legends of Kern Trilogy (Coleman): These are a collection of sentence fragments. While the use of fragments is a bone fide linguistic choice to emphasize certain elements, Coleman uses them in virtually every third sentence or more, which makes the books read like the author doesn't understand how to write in English. They made the books choppy to read. Also, the author did not do his research and refers to Shemites as a black race, including calling Belit an ebony-skinned beauty.
Anok: Heretic of Stygia Trilogy (York): This trilogy starts out strong and drops quickly into standard fantasy fare with a GI Joe-style plot. Virtually all of the side characters are useless to the hero and do not advance the plot at all. By the third book the side characters actually consciously recognize their uselessness.
The book is written in this manner: Anok does something in one chapter; next chapter - his enemies ruminate on what Anok did; next chapter: Anok worries about what he did; next chapter: Anok's friends worry about what Anok did; Next chapter Anok does something else and cycle begins again. He occasionally throws in chapters that review everything that happened previously. By the third book, the useless characters spend entire chapters depressed at how useless they are!
Author fails to do research when he gives a Stygian city a "Zamboulan" quarter filled with Zamboulan cannibals (it should have been a Darfari quarter with Darfari cannibals) who worship Hanuman (the Darfari do not worship Hanuman).
Also, the gods are real in this trilogy and Thoth-Amon acts like a moron. Characters only survive because bad guys are stupider than the heroes. Very high magic approach. See http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=2463.
Marauders Trilogy: Have not read. No opinion.
A Soldier's Quest Trilogy (Knaak): These were pretty good and well-researched. Only two major problems: One is that the hero falls unconscious every time the author wants to change the scene. The other is that every encounter is predictable - if a character initially treats the hero with violence or meanness, that character will be a friend; if the character is nice to the hero upon meeting, that character is guaranteed to be an enemy who will betray him. The third book has the best description of Cimmeria outside of Howard. Has some interesting characters and interesting plots. See http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showforum=38 for reviews of the individual books.
Of the three I read, the third one is the one I recommend.
Legends of Kern Trilogy (Coleman): These are a collection of sentence fragments. While the use of fragments is a bone fide linguistic choice to emphasize certain elements, Coleman uses them in virtually every third sentence or more, which makes the books read like the author doesn't understand how to write in English. They made the books choppy to read. Also, the author did not do his research and refers to Shemites as a black race, including calling Belit an ebony-skinned beauty.
Anok: Heretic of Stygia Trilogy (York): This trilogy starts out strong and drops quickly into standard fantasy fare with a GI Joe-style plot. Virtually all of the side characters are useless to the hero and do not advance the plot at all. By the third book the side characters actually consciously recognize their uselessness.
The book is written in this manner: Anok does something in one chapter; next chapter - his enemies ruminate on what Anok did; next chapter: Anok worries about what he did; next chapter: Anok's friends worry about what Anok did; Next chapter Anok does something else and cycle begins again. He occasionally throws in chapters that review everything that happened previously. By the third book, the useless characters spend entire chapters depressed at how useless they are!
Author fails to do research when he gives a Stygian city a "Zamboulan" quarter filled with Zamboulan cannibals (it should have been a Darfari quarter with Darfari cannibals) who worship Hanuman (the Darfari do not worship Hanuman).
Also, the gods are real in this trilogy and Thoth-Amon acts like a moron. Characters only survive because bad guys are stupider than the heroes. Very high magic approach. See http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=2463.
Marauders Trilogy: Have not read. No opinion.
A Soldier's Quest Trilogy (Knaak): These were pretty good and well-researched. Only two major problems: One is that the hero falls unconscious every time the author wants to change the scene. The other is that every encounter is predictable - if a character initially treats the hero with violence or meanness, that character will be a friend; if the character is nice to the hero upon meeting, that character is guaranteed to be an enemy who will betray him. The third book has the best description of Cimmeria outside of Howard. Has some interesting characters and interesting plots. See http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showforum=38 for reviews of the individual books.
Of the three I read, the third one is the one I recommend.
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
Thank you for the detailed review Vincent. I don't think I will buy any of this trilogy. Pastiche weren't not always good but at least they related adventures of Conan and showed his immediate environment.
I also remember your critics of Coleman.
It would be definitly better if the authors had at least some backgrounds knowledge of the Hyborian Age as well real skills for such a setting.
I also remember your critics of Coleman.
It would be definitly better if the authors had at least some backgrounds knowledge of the Hyborian Age as well real skills for such a setting.
The King said:
To be honest, the fact that these books weren't based around Conan was the one thing that caught my interest. After so many pastiches, the idea of having other characters in Hyboria was delightful. I do have to agree with you on the research, though. A deep understanding of what you're writing about seems common sense, really.
Thanks Vincent for giving us a bit of a review, too. Much appreciated.
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
From the beginning I was unsure with that. I was once a great fan of the Dragonlance saga and read all the books until it the authors made it a common setting whereas they could have wrote their same books for any other settings, say the forgotten realms.Lucius said:To be honest, the fact that these books weren't based around Conan was the one thing that caught my interest. After so many pastiches, the idea of having other characters in Hyboria was delightful. I do have to agree with you on the research, though. A deep understanding of what you're writing about seems common sense, really.
Thanks Vincent for giving us a bit of a review, too. Much appreciated.
I expected the same with Conan (or Age of Conan).
When the gold seam is exhausted, it's no use to try and make up anything shiny for precious.
Once again, I am sure Raymond E Feast would write a great Conan novel: he designed a world and was able to make it live with several cultures/civilizations and characters.
Valgrim Bragisson
Mongoose
I enjoyed the Kurn Trilogy, and had no problem with Colemen's sentance structure. I'm surprised at how people nitpick about that. These are novels, not textbooks. Artistic license is expected.
MP
MP
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
I just found it hard to read. I teach English classes, so the constant fragments irritated me. I kept wanting to get out a pen and correct his grammar, so I never was able to be drawn into the story.
When style interferes with the story, the good story-teller lets go of the style. His style interfered with his story, at least from my vantage as a person who enjoys well-constructed sentences.
Robert E. Howard used complete sentences for the most part, yet he did not write textbooks, so I don't quite understand your point. Actually, the Coleman books are the ONLY novels I have ever read that used so many sentence fragments and, although I am a teacher, I read more novels than textbooks.
When style interferes with the story, the good story-teller lets go of the style. His style interfered with his story, at least from my vantage as a person who enjoys well-constructed sentences.
Robert E. Howard used complete sentences for the most part, yet he did not write textbooks, so I don't quite understand your point. Actually, the Coleman books are the ONLY novels I have ever read that used so many sentence fragments and, although I am a teacher, I read more novels than textbooks.
Vincent791
Mongoose
Those books had 60% off so it was hard to say no. I bought the 3 trilogies Vincent comment on his first post. In my local store they only have the first book of Marauders so I passed with that one.
Anyway, I'm reading some Jordan stuff now, but I'll read those trilogies as soon as I finish with Jordan, Maddox Roberts and de Camp
Anyway, I'm reading some Jordan stuff now, but I'll read those trilogies as soon as I finish with Jordan, Maddox Roberts and de Camp
The only really bad AoC book to me was the third Anok book. The first book in the Anok series was highly praised - it just didn't really advance beyond the initial concept.
Other than that, the other books were enjoyable as adventures in s&s and worth the time if you are a fan of the genre.
My favorite series was the Soldier's Quest books but the Kern and Marauders series were fun to read as well.
I hope CPI continues the series with adventures in Turan, Hyrkania, Khitai, Nordheim, Black Kingdoms etc. I know i would buy them. 8)
Other than that, the other books were enjoyable as adventures in s&s and worth the time if you are a fan of the genre.
My favorite series was the Soldier's Quest books but the Kern and Marauders series were fun to read as well.
I hope CPI continues the series with adventures in Turan, Hyrkania, Khitai, Nordheim, Black Kingdoms etc. I know i would buy them. 8)
Damien
Mongoose
I just finished the Soldier's Quest trilogy, and have to say that I really enjoyed it. I found that it's really important to remember that this isn't Howard - and isn't going to be written in the same, amazing, flash-bang style. The whole trilogy definitely 'feels' more like your average fantasy series. Not to say it doesn't have the wonderful flavour of Hyboria - but the style of writing itself is not Howard.
The books were really good, though. Enjoyable to read.
Vincent mentioned that the main character passes out rather a lot. Unfortunately, this is something Knaak has a real problem with. I enjoy the Dragonlance series - and he's done quite a few novels for it. As a matter of fact, Soldier's Quest reads a LOT like Legend of Huma. The main character in both is a self-conscious knight that doesn't think he's good enough. And Knaak constantly knocks both characters unconscious whenever he needs to move the scene along. Indeed, for how 'amazing' both Nermesa and Huma are supposed to be, they are written as somewhat incompetant and have amazingly bad luck.
I also agree with Vincent's assessment that the characters (and their motivations) became really obvious and predictable. This was strange to me, since I don't recall this being something Knaak has done a lot in the past. He seems, judging from his earlier works, to be more fond of the opposite - bad guys are obviously bad guys from the start, and good guys are obviously good guys from the start.
Part of the problem there is pacing. Knaak tends to drag some scenes out so long that by the end of it, you expect the normally 'unexpected.' If you don't expect one character to betray another, you will before Knaak ever actually GETS to it. He's still one of the best fantasy authors out there, in my opinion (we miss you already David Gemmell*).
(*David Gemmell would have done amazing work if he chose to write an Age of Conan trilogy.)
I'm re-reading Bran Mak Morn right now - and then I think I'll pick up the Marauders trilogy to see if it's any good. As an aside, I really love the idea behind these books. I got -so- sick of writers with seemingly little understanding of Conan, trying to actually write Conan. Conan is Howard's. I don't believe anyone else can write the character in a way that will satisfy me. But the Age of Conan books allow authors to use one of the best settings ever to tell stories that have little or nothing to do with Conan. I like that. Adds more depth to the setting, AND avoids screwing up Howard's character.
I'll also say I agree with Vincent about Coleman. His books were on the shelf when I got Soldier's Quest, and I took about 10 minutes to read through them a bit to decide if I wanted to give them a go. They were awful. Vincent isn't exaggerating when he says Coleman uses sentence fragments almost every three sentences. It's jarring and really screws up the pacing of your reading. Plus, it looks bad and makes Coleman look like a very poor writer. I honestly couldn't get past that enough to even figure out if the story looked like it was any good.
The books were really good, though. Enjoyable to read.
Vincent mentioned that the main character passes out rather a lot. Unfortunately, this is something Knaak has a real problem with. I enjoy the Dragonlance series - and he's done quite a few novels for it. As a matter of fact, Soldier's Quest reads a LOT like Legend of Huma. The main character in both is a self-conscious knight that doesn't think he's good enough. And Knaak constantly knocks both characters unconscious whenever he needs to move the scene along. Indeed, for how 'amazing' both Nermesa and Huma are supposed to be, they are written as somewhat incompetant and have amazingly bad luck.
I also agree with Vincent's assessment that the characters (and their motivations) became really obvious and predictable. This was strange to me, since I don't recall this being something Knaak has done a lot in the past. He seems, judging from his earlier works, to be more fond of the opposite - bad guys are obviously bad guys from the start, and good guys are obviously good guys from the start.
Part of the problem there is pacing. Knaak tends to drag some scenes out so long that by the end of it, you expect the normally 'unexpected.' If you don't expect one character to betray another, you will before Knaak ever actually GETS to it. He's still one of the best fantasy authors out there, in my opinion (we miss you already David Gemmell*).
(*David Gemmell would have done amazing work if he chose to write an Age of Conan trilogy.)
I'm re-reading Bran Mak Morn right now - and then I think I'll pick up the Marauders trilogy to see if it's any good. As an aside, I really love the idea behind these books. I got -so- sick of writers with seemingly little understanding of Conan, trying to actually write Conan. Conan is Howard's. I don't believe anyone else can write the character in a way that will satisfy me. But the Age of Conan books allow authors to use one of the best settings ever to tell stories that have little or nothing to do with Conan. I like that. Adds more depth to the setting, AND avoids screwing up Howard's character.
I'll also say I agree with Vincent about Coleman. His books were on the shelf when I got Soldier's Quest, and I took about 10 minutes to read through them a bit to decide if I wanted to give them a go. They were awful. Vincent isn't exaggerating when he says Coleman uses sentence fragments almost every three sentences. It's jarring and really screws up the pacing of your reading. Plus, it looks bad and makes Coleman look like a very poor writer. I honestly couldn't get past that enough to even figure out if the story looked like it was any good.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Damien said:
As I said on my review for conan.com, it is a good thing his enemies don't read these books, or they would realize his Achilles' heel. Don't attack his head with a sword - he can duck head shots from a sword. Attack his head with a club. Those always connect, then he falls unconscious. Once he is unconscious, THEN attack with the sword.
I was re-reading my old review, and here was the pattern of unconsciousness for the second book (http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=3727):
Page 39, Nermesa falls unconscious
Page 42, Nermesa falls unconscious
Page 58, Nermesa falls asleep due to exhaustion
Page 62, Nermesa falls asleep (which gets him captured)
Page 74, Nermesa collapses into unconsciousness from exhaustion
Page 101, Nermesa blacks out
Page 102, Nermesa falls unconscious
Page 105, Nermesa falls unconscious
Nermesa falls unconscious about as often as a girl in an Edgar Rice Burroughs novel gets kidnapped.
Damien said:
Good point. I mentioned that on my review for the first book on conan.com (http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=3452, somewhat toward the bottom), wherein I said, "I liked the character of Nermesa, but I am getting tired of the now-standard fantasy figure of the kid with no confidence who lucks into fame and victory - and is surprised at the results. Makes one want to read Howard again - his characters were self-confident and made things happen, and didn't ponder at his luck when lucky breaks did happen."
I forgot about that bit. I disliked how the author always commented on his luck. Comments like "More by luck than effort, Nermesa kicked free" (page 94, The Eye of Charon) just make it sound like he only lived because the author wanted him to, than he deserved it. I would have rather read, "With extreme effort, Nermesa kicked free" instead of the luck comment. I think it makes the character sound more efficacious.
Damien said:
Yeah, I noticed it took Nermesa FOREVER to put two and two together. Maybe all the concussions gave him brain damage.
Damien said:
I agree there. I also like the idea behind the books. I wouldn't mind seeing a collection of AOC short stories, though. The trilogies get old. I did like how Knaak's trilogy are essentially three stand alone novels that are loosely linked instead of a single novel padded out over three books (like York's trilogy).
For me, the Knaak books were fun to read, and certainly are the best of the available AOC that I have read, but there is room for improvement.
Bjorn the Barbarian
Mongoose
Is Coleman really that bad? My wife bought me the "Legends of Kern" trilogy written by Coleman and I am wondering if they are even worth reading now that I have been reading this post. :shock:
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Bjorn the Barbarian said:
From what I understand, people who are tolerant of research errors, grammar errors and fragments have really enjoyed the series. Those of us who cringe at the research problems, grammatical problems and fragmented sentences are largely unable to be drawn into the story.
Another thing unmentioned about the Coleman stories is that the Cimmerians wear ponchos. Everytime I ran across that I pictured Mexicans. Those who treat the word as just descriptive of a type of clothing article probably won't have a problem; those who ascribe a cultural connotation to it will have a problem.
There were other word choice problems as well. Often, Coleman just chose words poorly, sending me right out of the Hyborian age instead of drawing me in.
One other problem with the Coleman novels is that the vast majority of characters are just names without any personality given to them - a long list of names at that.
You might try this site for more specific reviews: http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=1483
Bjorn the Barbarian
Mongoose
Thanks Vincent.
After reading the review, I would pass on trying to read them, but since my wife bought them for me I guess I'll slug through them and let you all know.
After reading the review, I would pass on trying to read them, but since my wife bought them for me I guess I'll slug through them and let you all know.
I've only read through the Kern trilogy, but have purchased Knaak's Soldier trilogy and plan to read it soon.
I found the Kern trilogy enjoyable enough. Not Howard-level of quality, but then I wasn't expecting it to be. While I can appreciate the grammatical issues with Coleman's writing style, I did find that it helped convey Kern as a man of action and seemed to fit the barbaric mindset that someone raised in Cimmeria might have.
Howard handled Conan's barbaric traits in a more descriptive manner, but you aren't usually immersed in what Conan is thinking as often as you are with Kern.
All of that aside, I give the series high marks for the following reason:
It's a great example of how Hyboria is a setting that is "big enough" to support other characters and stories other than Conan's. While this might be a valid criticism for people wanting to game in Middle Earth, for example, it's not true for Hyboria yet it's a claim that is made more frequently than I would have ever expected. If the Age of Conan books do nothing else, they demonstrate that there are room for lots of stories in Howard's world.
Azgulor
I found the Kern trilogy enjoyable enough. Not Howard-level of quality, but then I wasn't expecting it to be. While I can appreciate the grammatical issues with Coleman's writing style, I did find that it helped convey Kern as a man of action and seemed to fit the barbaric mindset that someone raised in Cimmeria might have.
Howard handled Conan's barbaric traits in a more descriptive manner, but you aren't usually immersed in what Conan is thinking as often as you are with Kern.
All of that aside, I give the series high marks for the following reason:
It's a great example of how Hyboria is a setting that is "big enough" to support other characters and stories other than Conan's. While this might be a valid criticism for people wanting to game in Middle Earth, for example, it's not true for Hyboria yet it's a claim that is made more frequently than I would have ever expected. If the Age of Conan books do nothing else, they demonstrate that there are room for lots of stories in Howard's world.
Azgulor
Bjorn the Barbarian
Mongoose
Azgulor,
Thanks for the info. I think I will start reading them tonight.
Thanks for the info. I think I will start reading them tonight.
