Aslan Client-States?

[rinku]

In regards to the "mixed client states" and "scattered client states" between the Imperium and the Hivers, the nature of the Hive Confederation means that many of them are going to be aliens that aren't Hiver worlds as such.

The way the Hivers work, they would be very comfortable to sponsor a bunch of mini-empires (suitably manipulated, of course) between them and the 3I.

Some of them probably even think they're Imperial client states!

In regards to the Aslan Client States... they're rimward of the Heirate and only really close to the Solomani. Now, for a long while what is the Solomani Sphere was Imperial territory, and *maybe* they were Imperial clients at one stage (I have my doubts), but since the Rim War it's hard to see how they could have stayed as such. But I think it's more likely they are what they seem to be - Aslan colonies that are still a bit independant.

 

[Condottiere]

Hiver client states might not realize that they are clients.

 

[MonsterX]

The problem with the term Aslan Client States is not the "client" concept, which maps nicely onto the idea of hierarchical allegiances, which Aslan have, but the "States" part of it. Their society is clan based, which means it is not organized by state as much as by family relationships.

 

[rinku]

Sure. I don't think anyone's really saying the label is particularly accurate.

 

[Garnfellow]

The problem with the term Aslan Client States is not the "client" concept, which maps nicely onto the idea of hierarchical allegiances, which Aslan have, but the "States" part of it. Their society is clan based, which means it is not organized by state as much as by family relationships.

As I wrote it up, the three Aslan Client States are more like "mini Hierates" than true centralized interstellar governments. Like the Hierate, the states are also confederations of different clans united by shared values and history. Because the Client States were isolated from the Hierate for so long and skipped the Purge, some of those values are weird and incompatible with the "modernized" Hierate. They all oppose succession by primogeniture, for example. There's a quite bit more of a defined pecking order in terms of clan rankings in the client states than the more egalitarian Hierate.

 

[G'Naakbusters]

Really, the very idea of a "state" is going to be applied loosely to the various non-Humans.

Aslan are clan-based and attach territorial claim to the individual. They're more an enforced cultural zone and network of wary associations than a political entity.

Hivers are communal-individualistic, and the distinction between the Hive Federation and the wider sphere of Hiver operations might well be largely a convenient Human fiction. The closest equivalent of "state" in Hiver space seems to be the distinct cultural zones of prominent members, which I take as somewhat equivalent to a child's room in the wider house. It's that race's space and carries their distinct individuality but it's not sovereign; parent can come in and tidy up as need be.

K'kree have herds that are all ultimately subdivisions of the Great Herd; any weirdos who leave are basically ignored from that point on, so the idea of a state is pretty much meaningless. There are the K'kree -- All The Nobles (which includes their servants, wives, children, underlings)-- and then a rabble of things that, unfortunately, aren't. There's also the point that the term Humans use for "the K'kree Empire" is actually a phrase meaning "the observable universe".

Droyne have oytripin and a Mandate for Community which is apparently partly psionic, partly operating program installed culturally (and psychically?) by Grandfather.

Vargr sort of have the closest equivalent, but it still seems more conceptual than actual. Human states may be in practice fluid and changeable and short-lived but they like to pretend they have some permanent identity. Vargr coalitions are more like pre-nation state kingdoms; they're mostly theoretical as soon as you leave the immediate area. In fact, the less actual territorial control or institutional grip your nation has, the better you're doing, arguably, since it means your charisma is such that you're able to spin a shared fiction out of nothing!

As for minor races, the Vegans have tuhuir, the Bwaps have branches of the Wapawab, the Hhkar have ssaaahk, Jgd-il-Jagd have hunts, S'mrii have phyla, the Virushi have "if I ask politely someone might do what I want or they might not, ho hum". None of them really have anything equivalent to a nation state.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Really, the very idea of a "state" is going to be applied loosely to the various non-Humans.

Aslan are clan-based and attach territorial claim to the individual. They're more an enforced cultural zone and network of wary associations than a political entity.

Hivers are communal-individualistic, and the distinction between the Hive Federation and the wider sphere of Hiver operations might well be largely a convenient Human fiction. The closest equivalent of "state" in Hiver space seems to be the distinct cultural zones of prominent members, which I take as somewhat equivalent to a child's room in the wider house. It's that race's space and carries their distinct individuality but it's not sovereign; parent can come in and tidy up as need be.

K'kree have herds that are all ultimately subdivisions of the Great Herd; any weirdos who leave are basically ignored from that point on, so the idea of a state is pretty much meaningless. There are the K'kree -- All The Nobles (which includes their servants, wives, children, underlings)-- and then a rabble of things that, unfortunately, aren't. There's also the point that the term Humans use for "the K'kree Empire" is actually a phrase meaning "the observable universe".

Droyne have oytripin and a Mandate for Community which is apparently partly psionic, partly operating program installed culturally (and psychically?) by Grandfather.

Vargr sort of have the closest equivalent, but it still seems more conceptual than actual. Human states may be in practice fluid and changeable and short-lived but they like to pretend they have some permanent identity. Vargr coalitions are more like pre-nation state kingdoms; they're mostly theoretical as soon as you leave the immediate area. In fact, the less actual territorial control or institutional grip your nation has, the better you're doing, arguably, since it means your charisma is such that you're able to spin a shared fiction out of nothing!

As for minor races, the Vegans have tuhuir, the Bwaps have branches of the Wapawab, the Hhkar have ssaaahk, Jgd-il-Jagd have hunts, S'mrii have phyla, the Virushi have "if I ask politely someone might do what I want or they might not, ho hum". None of them really have anything equivalent to a nation state.

and all of those differences, make the game much more interesting than just lumping everything together in human terms. Human terms and concepts for alien cultures is boring. Quit showing Me how the Imperial Humans view the other races, show Me how the other races view themselves. Quit making every map humanocentric. Quit making every everything fluid to the point where words no longer even mean what the dictionary says they mean. Quit making every piece of setting material that is written, being written as "in-universe" with Imperial bias in full view so that We never actually get an accurate picture of anything! Traveller is exceptionally bad at this.

 

[Condottiere]

There's always nation state.

But the point being, that the first party is subordinate to the second party.

 

[MonsterX]

and all of those differences, make the game much more interesting than just lumping everything together in human terms. Human terms and concepts for alien cultures is boring. Quit showing Me how the Imperial Humans view the other races, show Me how the other races view themselves. Quit making every map humanocentric. Quit making every everything fluid to the point where words no longer even mean what the dictionary says they mean. Quit making every piece of setting material that is written, being written as "in-universe" with Imperial bias in full view so that We never actually get an accurate picture of anything! Traveller is exceptionally bad at this.

Steady on! The Aslan client state label dates way back. I'm not totally sure until when but it would probably have been put on some old Traveller map without too much thought being given at that point. As you work out the internal details of these things, as the decades go by sometimes the you have the reconcile the old history and societal descriptions with the new one somehow. A lot of 80s canon looks dated, and you could just throw it out and try again, but keeping it and trying to make it work also gives it the feel of real history, which is often messy. Anyways, you can't really blame Mongoose for decisions made decades ago, nor can you expect them to keep everything in the old canon unworkable and uninteresting just because someone stuck a word on a map back in 1982 or whatever.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Steady on! The Aslan client state label dates way back. I'm not totally sure until when but it would probably have been put on some old Traveller map without too much thought being given at that point. As you work out the internal details of these things, as the decades go by sometimes the you have the reconcile the old history and societal descriptions with the new one somehow. A lot of 80s canon looks dated, and you could just throw it out and try again, but keeping it and trying to make it work also gives it the feel of real history, which is often messy. Anyways, you can't really blame Mongoose for decisions made decades ago, nor can you expect them to keep everything in the old canon unworkable and uninteresting just because someone stuck a word on a map back in 1982 or whatever.

As long as Mongoose is continuing those old mistakes, I most certainly can. Otherwise, We'd have never moved past CT. Why do you think I want them to continue something unworkable and/or uninteresting? I am literally arguing the opposite of that.

 

[MonsterX]

As long as Mongoose is continuing those old mistakes, I most certainly can. Otherwise, We'd have never moved past CT. Why do you think I want them to continue something unworkable and/or uninteresting? I am literally arguing the opposite of that.

I'm saying that what makes sense to do, and what they seem to usually actually do, is reinvent the material based on what is already there. This means that instead of chucking out the old maps, we get Aslan Client States which don't really work like client states. Either Mongoose, or the fan base comes up with an explanation for how that can happen, and we move on. We are left with a funny idiosyncratic explanation, which is fine because IRL the real world is full of odd things like that and it makes the universe feel more real, not less.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'm saying that what makes sense to do, and what they seem to usually actually do, is reinvent the material based on what is already there. This means that instead of chucking out the old maps, we get Aslan Client States which don't really work like client states. Either Mongoose, or the fan base comes up with an explanation for how that can happen, and we move on. We are left with a funny idiosyncratic explanation, which is fine because IRL the real world is full of odd things like that and it makes the universe feel more real, not less.

It makes it feel as if you can not trust a single world in any material. If Mongoose wants to use words outside of common usage, then they need to put out their own dictionary. All it does right now is make it harder for new players to understand.

Continuing old mistakes is not "reinventing the material based on what is already there." It is continuing mistakes for no other reason than inertia.

It is Mine and @Sigtrygg main problem with the upcoming Vehicles Handbook. The same mistakes from the current vehicle handbook are being regurgitated and continued for no good reason. They have an opportunity to fix previous mistakes with a system that doesn't work with the rest of the system, but instead of fixing the major problems, they just go and rework the old problems. The result is better than before, but it is still flawed at it's most basic level.

Example: Slots, Spaces, and Dtons.

As it stands now, the Vehicle Handbook is unusable with High Guard and the Robot Handbook, and it looks like the new Vehicle Handbook will be the same way. I totally hope I am wrong on that though, because in general, I love Gier's writing.

 

[Anstett]

Reading threads like this reminds me of the book Babel.

...grapples with student revolutions, colonial resistance, and the use of language and translation as the dominating tool of the British empire...

Amazon.com

@MasterGwydion If you have not read it I think you will find it interesting. The language of words.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Reading threads like this reminds me of the book Babel.

...grapples with student revolutions, colonial resistance, and the use of language and translation as the dominating tool of the British empire...

Amazon.com

@MasterGwydion If you have not read it I think you will find it interesting. The language of words.

Okay. That book looks amazing! Now I have to go buy a tablet or an e-reader or something.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Okay. That book looks amazing! Now I have to go buy a tablet or an e-reader or something.

I have a Kindle Oasis and love it. E-Ink and long battery life.

 

[rinku]

Steady on! The Aslan client state label dates way back. I'm not totally sure until when but it would probably have been put on some old Traveller map without too much thought being given at that point.

Read back a bit. As I mentioned maybe a page earlier it was indeed the original map, published in Supplement 8 (Library Data A-M) (1980).

 

[rinku]

The label "Aslan Client States" is clearly just an Imperial one. Those happen all the time - no one in Japan has ever called the area that. It seems to have come in either from mishearing a Chinese pronunciation of the characters, or picked up from Malay or Indonesian words for them by the Portuguese. Germany is derived from Latin terms and has never been used by the Deutschlanders themselves. Any polity big enough gets called an Empire, regardless of its structure.

 

[Condottiere]

The Middle Kingdom had vassal states, and, if only for diplomatic and trade reasons, these went along with it.

I think the break came with Japan, when the Mongols wanted a more concrete relationship.

 

[rinku]

Things got a bit windy...

 

[rinku]

I will say one thing, though. GDW (and thus the Imperium) avoided calling all the alien governments Empires, and gave them each their own label.

I do suspect the coreward Aslan area was labelled "client states" to distinguish them from the "colonies" over the Great Rift. Functionally both are probably similar.