Additional Weapons

[pasuuli]

Once upon a time, I was a Classic Traveller guy. So, when it comes to weapons, well I'm all over the map. Anyway, I'm trying to come up with Mongoose Traveller numbers for weapons; any suggestions would be helpful.

(For example: "the FGMP is way too cheap" might be good to hear).

Weapon                Range        Kg   Damage   Cost

Matchlock musket-2    short        8     2D      Cr1,200.
Wheellock pistol-2    short        2.2   1D      Cr2,000.
Smoothbore pistol-2   short        1.9   1D      Cr600.
Arquebus-2            med          10.4  3D      Cr2,400. 
Flintlock musket-3    short        6.8   2D      Cr360.
Flintlock rifle-3     quite long   8     2D      Cr2,000.
Standard SMG-6        long         2.4   3D+1    Cr2,700.
Standard MG-7         quite long   8     3D+2    Cr3,000.
Gauss Shotgun-11      short        3.6   3D+1    Cr600.
Sniper Gauss Rifle-13 quite long   4     3D+1    Cr2,000.
Heavy FGMP-14         quite long   27    5D      KCr 60.
Plasma Pistol-15      short        5.5   3D      Cr6,000.
Plasma Rifle-18       quite long   10    3D+2    Cr5,000.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

The Gauss Shotgun should be 5D damage and the Gauss Sniper 6, 7, or 8D.

But I'm a tart for Mass Effect so I'm being too nice.

 

[pasuuli]

Wow... that would make them pretty devastating, wouldn't it?

On the other hand, it probably should be higher than TL11 too... I'll see what I can do.

And for the sniper rifle, I'm thinking there should be a special effect of the sniper being able to place the shot with uncanny precision...

 

[EDG]

Well you could always figure out the velocity of the gauss bullet relative to say a chemical rifle or shotgun and see how much more damaging it could be... it's all in the physics!

 

[far-trader]

Well you could always figure out the velocity of the gauss bullet relative to say a chemical rifle or shotgun and see how much more damaging it could be... it's all in the physics!

To a degree yes. But at a point more power is just blow through and no more damage. More damage is in fact caused by a lower power bullet carving a curved path inside the body than by a high powered one that simply causes a through and through, on average. Naturally a through and through in a major vital organ will ruin your day every bit as much as the longer twisty fragments that eventually end up lodging in a major vital organ.

More power* will generally give you a flatter trajectory, longer range, less susceptibility to wind and such. In other words the to hit factors. Or armor penetration. But generally after a certain point damage potential is all the same. There is only so much hurt a body can take. A bigger bullet will do more damage, but at a point it's not so much "Ow I've been shot!" as "Hey where did BOB go and what's this red mist?"

 

[Infojunky]

Well you could always figure out the velocity of the gauss bullet relative to say a chemical rifle or shotgun and see how much more damaging it could be... it's all in the physics!

See that is part of the problem, the current set don't have a consistent physics model.

 

[collins355]

Heavy FGMP isn't "too cheap" if, consistent with CT FGMP-14, it only works when linked up with Battle Dress. In which case you have to factor in the cost of BD as well...not such a bargain. And most would play that BD is only available to the military in normal circumstances.

 

[pasuuli]

Heavy FGMP isn't "too cheap" if, consistent with CT FGMP-14, it only works when linked up with Battle Dress. In which case you have to factor in the cost of BD as well...not such a bargain. And most would play that BD is only available to the military in normal circumstances.

That's helpful, thanks.

 

[aspqrz]

Once upon a time, I was a Classic Traveller guy. So, when it comes to weapons, well I'm all over the map. Anyway, I'm trying to come up with Mongoose Traveller numbers for weapons; any suggestions would be helpful.

(For example: "the FGMP is way too cheap" might be good to hear).

Weapon                Range        Kg   Damage   Cost

Matchlock musket-2    short        8     2D      Cr1,200.
Wheellock pistol-2    short        2.2   1D      Cr2,000.
Smoothbore pistol-2   short        1.9   1D      Cr600.
Arquebus-2            med          10.4  3D      Cr2,400. 
Flintlock musket-3    short        6.8   2D      Cr360.
Flintlock rifle-3     quite long   8     2D      Cr2,000.
Standard SMG-6        long         2.4   3D+1    Cr2,700.
Standard MG-7         quite long   8     3D+2    Cr3,000.
Gauss Shotgun-11      short        3.6   3D+1    Cr600.
Sniper Gauss Rifle-13 quite long   4     3D+1    Cr2,000.
Heavy FGMP-14         quite long   27    5D      KCr 60.
Plasma Pistol-15      short        5.5   3D      Cr6,000.
Plasma Rifle-18       quite long   10    3D+2    Cr5,000.

Of course, this all begs the question of what those numbers, especially the prices, actually mean.

For example, does anyone seriously believe that a) an Flintlock Rifle-3 would cost 2000 Cr on a TL/7 world except, possibly, if it is an actual and verifiable historical antique?

You can buy flintlock rifle muskets (reproductions) for c. US$500 or so (give or take) here and now and the cost of living table in MTrav would seem to indicate that 1 Cr = US$2 or thereabouts (which gels with previous commentary by Marc and others), making them worth Cr 250 in Traveller terms.

Of course, that's at a hefty markup for collectors, I'd guess, and using modern mass production techniques.

But, given that they do, allegedly, cost 2000 Cr, and a Credit is a Credit is a Credit, regardless of whether its a TL/3 or TL/15 world, surely the denizens of said TL/3 world wouldn't bother?

They could buy a 200 Cr Rifle (even allowing for shipping) and, really, cleaning it and maintaining it will be no more difficult ... less, actually. The ammo costs 1/2 Cr per round while for a flintlock it costs 10 Cr per round! :shock: Huge saving! Less fouling and corrosion because the rifle uses smokeless powder, not black powder.

Even allowing as how it will break down eventually, and its completely impossible to get spares (unlikely in the extreme), throw it away and buy a new 200 Cr rifle. Repeat 10 times.

Given that the Rifle is almost certainly built of better materials than the rifle musket, you'll still come out ahead. Way ahead.

Even if you're marooned on a low tech world, temporarily like, let's face it, unless the GM is outrageously stacking the deck against you, there's so much you're going to have that will earn you far more than its face value if you decide to sell it that even in that sort of situation, the value of the rifle musket at 2000 Cr is ... silly

Which brings us back, as such silliness always does, to the meaninglessness of TLs in a Trade based Imperium!

Like rocks at Cee or Empty Hex Jumps, of course :wink:

(That is, ignore this post or not as it suits you - it's one of my pet peeves with any version of Traveller :wink: )

Phil

 

[pasuuli]

Of course, this all begs the question of what those numbers, especially the prices, actually mean.

Prices aren't important. Neither mass nor damage. Setting is king.

They only mean that characters usually want to buy the best they can find for the least amount of money, and the TL is one of many ways a referee limits access to equipment.

Occasionally a "collector" character who's secure in her abilities may want a musket in her repertoire. A character in Wanderer might drool over a low TL firearm -- if it has superior characteristics to a bow that is.

But a typical player wants one of the goodies in the printed Mongoose books.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Don't really think MGT, or any rpg for that matter, is particularly good at modeling the actual physics of gunfire. All it can do is make sure the differences between the weapons correlate in some way with real life, much like a driving game on Xbox.

I suggested 5D for the gauss shotgun because it is 1D more than the gauss rifle, which is the equivalent step from cp rifle to cp shotgun. Any less than 5D then there's little point for it. The gauss sniper, I felt, should be able to deal the same kind of damage as the LAG, but do it as a small arm rather than a heavy weapon. That's my reasoning for that stuff.

 

[pasuuli]

Good point - design systems often have lots of things you can make but are inferior. And let's face it, there's a finite number of guns out there that can do 3D+1...

 

[pasuuli]

Well, using different damage formulae, I get more lethal results. Are they too powerful for Traveller?

Matchlock musket-2    short        8     2D      Cr1,200.
Wheellock pistol-2    short        2.2   1D      Cr2,000.
Smoothbore pistol-2   short        1.9   1D      Cr600.
Arquebus-2            med          10.4  3D      Cr2,400.
Flintlock musket-3    short        6.8   2D      Cr360.
Flintlock rifle-3     quite long   8     2D      Cr2,000.
Standard SMG-6        long         2.4   4D      Cr2,700.
Standard MG-7         quite long   8     5D      Cr3,000.
Gauss Shotgun-12      short        3.6   5D      Cr1,500.
Sniper GRMP*-13       quite long   16    9D      Cr10,000.
Heavy FGMP-14         quite long   27   12D      KCr 60.
Plasma Pistol-15      short        5.5   3D      Cr6,000.
Plasma Rifle-17       long         9     4D      Cr5,000. 
Fusion Pistol-21      medium       1.3   5D      Cr6,700.

* GRMP - Gauss Rifle, Man Portable
* MGMP - Meson Gun, Man Portable

 

[aspqrz]

Of course, this all begs the question of what those numbers, especially the prices, actually mean.

Prices aren't important.

With the greatest of respect, you are completely wrong. IMO, of course :wink:

Prices are vitally important and, in a game like Traveller, relative prices are where, for example, Traders can make a killing (or should be able to).

You're a Free Trader operator, forex, and you hear of this world, TL3 (whatever that realistically means) that has 2000 Cr Flintlock Muskets and where ammo for them costs 10 Cr per round.

:idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

You know a TL7 world where there is a huge surplus of ex-military Rifles, selling for 200 Cr each, factory fresh, still in the cosmoline, and where 20 rounds of ammo costs 10 Cr. And that's retail.

So you buy several tons worth, at wholesale ... so, probably, at 60% off retail ... or 80 Cr per rifle and 4 Cr per 20 rounds, ship it to said TL3 world and sell them for, say, 500 Cr per Rifle and 25 Cr per 20 rounds of ammo. Even allowing for shipping costs you're gonna make a killing.

And, no, since these guys are capable of understanding basic maintenance needs of Flintlock Muskets, they're not gonna have a problem maintaining Rifles ... and if they do break down, so what?

They buy another one. It's still cheaper than the Flintlock.

And how long will they last? A lot of WW1 era Bolt Action Rifles are still in use and still viable weapons, never having broken down, and WW1 was 90 years ago. I have no idea how long Flintlock Muskets remained in use as viable weapons, but I doubt they have a practical economic advantage, all things being equal.

Basic common sense and basic economics in a Trade based Imperium.

Phil

 

[pasuuli]

Of course, a trade system thrives on imbalances.

So, really, my overstatement (that's what it was of course) stands, as far as it goes: price isn't important. Because.... setting is king. The presence of unbalanced markets is one way to make money, so it's a useful part of a setting.

What you've given us is not a defense of particular prices, but rather a plot hook. An interesting one, too... I wonder if that TL3 world's governments could simply be toppled by an appropriate selection of mercenary cadres? Or perhaps the world is being protected by a more advanced culture... or, perhaps, "protected" has really turned into "hermetically sealed off" or "smothered". Might make those TL3-ers hopping mad -- mad enough to find some way to hire a mercenary group to break the blockade...

Of course the intent of my statement was to implicitly agree, to a certain extent, with the poster who questioned the meaning of prices. However, your example answered him better than I.

And so the original point of this is to ask: are the prices I've calculated for my little weapons list reasonable, within the ballpark, good enough? Similarly with the mass and damage ratings?

Most importantly, my more recent damage ratings tend to run high. Are they too high?